Average Speed Cameras on Handcross Hill

[Triggaaar]

A few years back I got a ticket for speeding in London (flashed by a camera). I responded saying it was a company car (which it was) and that we did not keep a record of who was driving it. They wrote back and said we had to keep records. I replied "well, we don't". Never heard any more.

Exactly. Has Edna explained exactly how this loophole has been closed?

But a limit is just that - it is not a target you have to meet, or exceed. Judge your speed to the road conditions, time of day, weather, etc.

Basically, use a bit of common sense.

No one said it was a target, but a limit should mean something, like a maximum safe limit given good conditions. The fact is that some limits seem a bit high, and others seem too low. If you advocate driving with common sense, then you're basically in agreement with me, making your own judgements and not relying on some crappy limits to guide you.

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A few years back I got a ticket for speeding in London (flashed by a camera). I responded saying it was a company car (which it was) and that we did not keep a record of who was driving it. They wrote back and said we had to keep records. I replied "well, we don't". Never heard any more.

Exactly. Has Edna explained exactly how this loophole has been closed?

But a limit is just that - it is not a target you have to meet, or exceed. Judge your speed to the road conditions, time of day, weather, etc.

Basically, use a bit of common sense.

No one said it was a target, but a limit should mean something, like a maximum safe limit given good conditions. The fact is that some limits seem a bit high, and others seem too low. If you advocate driving with common sense, then you're basically in agreement with me, making your own judgements and not relying on some crappy limits to guide you.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Why can't those drivers who hold everybody up doing 30-35mph in the fast lane pull over-

I can drive 40mph all the way without the need to hit the breaks,yet due to these selfish drivers i have to back off the throttle as i am not allowed by law to "undertake"

It gets up peoples backs and poor lane discipline causes unnecessary and dangerous switching of lanes without the use of indicators (funny how most modern vehicles are no longer fitted with them)

 

[goldstone]

The average speed cameras in place on the M25 Godstone to Sevenoaks in preparation for turning the hard shoulder into a 4th lane do have floodlights in position next to them. Odd then that those on Handcross Hill do not and people have got tickets for speeding there at night?? Maybe infrared as someone suggested? In which case why are they needed on the M25?

 

[Arthritic Toe]

I find it hard to believe that these temporary average speed cameras would stand up in court. Until now (this thread) I'd never actually heard of anyone getting a ticket from them. If you get snapped by a fixed camera (Gatso), you get reams of information about the date the camera was last calibrated, supporting photos etc.

These temporary cameras are such flimsy affairs, the distance between the start camera and end camera must be exact and known precisely to be admissable. Also their clocks must be precisely synchronised. I'd be very surprised if all that would stand up to scrutiny.

Maybe they just accept the money from those who pay up and ignore anyone who challenges it?

 

[happypig]

I find it hard to believe that these temporary average speed cameras would stand up in court. Until now (this thread) I'd never actually heard of anyone getting a ticket from them. If you get snapped by a fixed camera (Gatso), you get reams of information about the date the camera was last calibrated, supporting photos etc.

These temporary cameras are such flimsy affairs, the distance between the start camera and end camera must be exact and known precisely to be admissable. Also their clocks must be precisely synchronised. I'd be very surprised if all that would stand up to scrutiny.

Maybe they just accept the money from those who pay up and ignore anyone who challenges it?

I don't know how it works but I would imagine that the cameras are linked to a computer and each time a vehicle enters the first one a record is created with the reg no and time. This record is discarded after 3 minutes (2 miles at 40 MPH) unless the vehicle goes through the second camera in which case the record and both photos are saved and processed.
I dont imagine the people fitting the cameras haven't measured the distance exactly, it's not rocket science.

 

[Arthritic Toe]

I don't know how it works but I would imagine that the cameras are linked to a computer and each time a vehicle enters the first one a record is created with the reg no and time. This record is discarded after 3 minutes (2 miles at 40 MPH) unless the vehicle goes through the second camera in which case the record and both photos are saved and processed.
I dont imagine the people fitting the cameras haven't measured the distance exactly, it's not rocket science.

Yeah but the point is, for it to stand up in court it must be precise, certified, validated and irrefutable. Not just paced out by some camera fitter.

 

[Peter Grummit]

I am sure Edna is right that the police don't have targets for speeding offences. However, can anyone think of a more equitable way to help pay for the road improvements? It's targeting those users of the road who will benefit from the investment and penalising those who will, in aggregate, impose externality costs on other road users and on society via NHS costs etc.

PG

 

[goldstone]

... penalising those who will, in aggregate, impose externality costs on other road users and on society via NHS costs etc.PG

"... impose externality costs ... ?? Is it possible that you could use words that the rest of us understand .... please.

 

[Triggaaar]

The average speed cameras in place on the M25 Godstone to Sevenoaks in preparation for turning the hard shoulder into a 4th lane do have floodlights in position next to them. Odd then that those on Handcross Hill do not and people have got tickets for speeding there at night?? Maybe infrared as someone suggested?

They don't need infrared, we've all got lights on our cars that light up our number plates. Well, you lot do.

 

[happypig]

Yeah but the point is, for it to stand up in court it must be precise, certified, validated and irrefutable. Not just paced out by some camera fitter.

It will be precise, certified and validated. As for irrefutable, if you think it's not, why not drive up there at 50 mph and when you get a ticket, decline the fixed penalty, go to court and plead not guilty. When it goes to trial, you can put forward your assertion that it was "just paced out by some camera fitter" and therefore you have no case to answer.

 

[goldstone]

They don't need infrared, we've all got lights on our cars that light up our number plates. Well, you lot do.

In which case why do the cameras on the M25 have floodlights installed next to them?

 

[BLOCK F]

I am sure Edna is right that the police don't have targets for speeding offences. However, can anyone think of a more equitable way to help pay for the road improvements? It's targeting those users of the road who will benefit from the investment and penalising those who will, in aggregate, impose externality costs on other road users and on society via NHS costs etc.

PG

'externality costs' or not;I reckon many accidents are caused by carelessness,inattention,lack of concentration,poor judgement and various other failings on the part of the driver of a vehicle.
There is too much emphasis put on speeding being the main cause of accidents.Trouble is, with seemingly fewer plods actually patrolling our roads,more emphasis is put on catching speeding drivers by camera,because these cameras can't catch downright bad driving that does not involve speeding.

 

[The Large One]

'externality costs' or not;I reckon many accidents are caused by carelessness,inattention,lack of concentration,poor judgement and various other failings on the part of the driver of a vehicle.
There is too much emphasis put on speeding being the main cause of accidents.Trouble is, with seemingly fewer plods actually patrolling our roads,more emphasis is put on catching speeding drivers by camera,because these cameras can't catch downright bad driving that does not involve speeding.

Actively driving slower (as opposed to being a natural slow-coach) requires care, attention, concentration and good judgement. Similarly, a speed camera generally brings the driver back to the land of those necessities - even if only for a minute or so.

Those that don't wake up at that moment deserve their ticket.

 

[BLOCK F]

Actively driving slower (as opposed to being a natural slow-coach) requires care, attention, concentration and good judgement. Similarly, a speed camera generally brings the driver back to the land of those necessities - even if only for a minute or so.

Those that don't wake up at that moment deserve their ticket.

'Those that don't wake up at that moment deserve their ticket'.
Well maybe and maybe not.Trouble is there is no discretion with a camera.Sheer bad driving by many still goes unpunished in many instances and the mild speeders get clobbered.

 

[The Large One]

'Those that don't wake up at that moment deserve their ticket'.
Well maybe and maybe not.Trouble is there is no discretion with a camera.Sheer bad driving by many still goes unpunished in many instances and the mild speeders get clobbered.

Can't disagree with the emboldened bit, but until such time as active measure can be put in place to prevent bad driving, speeding tickets is the only way to clobber speedists (which some might say is still 'bad driving').

I'll add in shit parking while I'm at it.

 

[goldstone]

Exactly. Has Edna explained exactly how this loophole has been closed?

I don't believe so. Not how they can penalise a company if the company says they have no record of who was driving. I guess they could take the company to court (not sure for what), but they would be unable to allocate points to an unknown driver.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Trouble is, with seemingly fewer plods actually patrolling our roads,more emphasis is put on catching speeding drivers by camera,because these cameras can't catch downright bad driving that does not involve speeding.

Indeed - if the police could actually get officers out on the road they might actually catch the dozens of people I see driving while on their mobile phones each week.

 

[sten_super]

'Those that don't wake up at that moment deserve their ticket'.
Well maybe and maybe not.Trouble is there is no discretion with a camera.Sheer bad driving by many still goes unpunished in many instances and the mild speeders get clobbered.

I'll be interested to see whether the increased prevalence of 'black boxes' for insurance purposes has any effect on dangerous driving. I'd like to think so but I can't help being sceptical about the whole thing. and that people will soon forget they are there and pay their premiums regardless.

 

[otk]

I seem to recall a campaign to get plod out of their panda cars, and on the streets, to catch thieves, rapists and drug-dealers. Now it would appear the height of some peoples concerns is people talking on their mobiles when driving

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I seem to recall a campaign to get plod out of their panda cars, and on the streets, to catch thieves, rapists and drug-dealers. Now it would appear the height of some peoples concerns is people talking on their mobiles when driving

Where's anyone said to take beat officers of the streets and chuck them in cars Using your mobile phone while driving is highly dangerous ( certainly more dangerous than going a few miles over the speed limit in most cases ) and the practice of using enforcement cameras while reducing traffic patrols only increases the problem or at least doesn't reduce it.