Are we still a European force?

[Titanic]

I'd love someone to explain what realistic alternative Cameron had, and what they think Eds Milliband and Bollx would have achieved in the same circumstances ?

 

[drew]

Are we still a European force? Yes, of course.

But the Euro is not our currency, it's theirs. They decided to let in countries not fit to join whilst pushing this federalist agenda. It's risk and reward - we lose out when the Euro is strong, so when the Euro is f***ed it's illogical for the UK to bail it out, otherwise we suffer the consequences of risk in the bad times without getting the benefits of reward in the good times.

And I see little point in beating Cameron up over the recent summit. This debacle goes way back to De Gaulle's opposition to our joining the EEC. He's merely a player in a drama that's been running for 40 years.

Things need to be brought into perspective - we still have influence with the US, Commonwealth and one of the main financial markets in the world. Italy has a fleet of ice cream vans, France has a lot of Greek debt.

Surely when the Euro is strong that suits our exporters. Oil and energy is all purchased in dollars so the only ones that benefit from a weak euro are importers and holiday makers.

Let's remember that the EU has effectively forced government change in two member countries - Italy and Greece - both of whom had democratically elected governments and whose voters got no say in the change of government. The EU is corrupt from the top to the bottom and if anything needs culling it is the EU and it's entire structure. That's not very likely to happen given the current setup allows France and Germany to control and rule Europe. Therefore we should leave.

The voters of Greece and Italy did not elect the current governments - the EU placed so much pressure on the PMs that the governments switched. In the case of the Greeks, the EU didn't like that the PM wanted to consult his people DEMOCRATICALLY about the deal on the table. The EU is corrupt and undemocratic and hates anyone who questions its authority.

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of the previous governments were elected by the voters of Greece and Italy as they were coalitions, just as Cameron did not win the election in 2010. Nobody votes for a coalition, it is a compromise between politicians wiling to do deals and sacrifice their principles, well some are forced to sacrifice their principles, just ask Clegg.

 

[drew]

As for people banging on about the tobin tax or FTT or whatever you want to call it, was this a non-negotiable condition of the treaty to save the Euro. As I understand that was not the case and we would still have had a veto. So exactly what did we gain by walking away?

 

[User removed 4]

As for people banging on about the tobin tax or FTT or whatever you want to call it, was this a non-negotiable condition of the treaty to save the Euro. As I understand that was not the case and we would still have had a veto. So exactly what did we gain by walking away?

As I understand it, it was a non-negotiable clause, why on earth they chose this particular time for this particular fight I dont know.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Bugger this. Look at that. As soon as I pontificate on something I know a little about, they smack you in the face by swearing in a Prime Miniister

Belgium swears in new gov'tBy CLAIRE ROSEMBERGDecember 13, 2011, 2:00amBRUSSELS, Belgium (AFP) — Belgium finally swore in a prime minister and Cabinet on Tuesday after a record-breaking 541 days without a government but they face an uphill battle to tackle problems at the root of the deadlock.

“I swear fidelity to the king, obedience to the constitution and to the laws of the Belgian people,’’ Prime Minister Elio Di Rupo said in the country’s three languages – French, Dutch, and German – with his right hand raised.

The ceremony, led by King Albert II at his palace, ends one of Belgium’s bleakest moments, an 18-month marathon of political haggling in which the monarch worked to steer feuding politicians back to the negotiating table.

Quite

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It was one i couldnt resist HT, but it was a cheap shot, and the lovely mrs HT is none of the above i'm sure.

Frau Tubthumper has her faults (she is half-English) but you are correct, none of the above apply.

 

[sten_super]

Quite

Bugger me that's some seriously good selective quoting. You're going to latch on to the fact that they recently elected a government and ignore the FIVE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE days they were without a government and the large political hurdles that remain? At least have the good grace to acknowledge when someone's managed to fundamentally disprove your point.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Bugger me that's some seriously good selective quoting. You're going to latch on to the fact that they recently elected a government and ignore the FIVE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE days they were without a government and the large political hurdles that remain? At least have the good grace to acknowledge when someone's managed to fundamentally disprove your point.

One country out of 27, well 26 now, does not fundamentally disprove my arguement does it? 1 in 26 is hardly the norm.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'd love someone to explain what realistic alternative Cameron

One other thing. I thought Cameron was building some bridges with the French. Didnt we have some military agreement? Arnt we renting them our aircraft carriers of something? This never came to anything meaningful did it.

 

[beorhthelm]

As for people banging on about the tobin tax or FTT or whatever you want to call it, was this a non-negotiable condition of the treaty to save the Euro. As I understand that was not the case and we would still have had a veto. So exactly what did we gain by walking away?

you understand wrongly, it apparently wasnt negotiable. commentators opinined in recent weeks that Merkel was backing it precisely so that it could be discarded for UK support on other matters, but somewhere along the line Sarkozy seems to have decided that it was vital. thats speculation of course, either way understand this: it has nothing to do with the debt crisis. the imposition of this tax wont suddenly make the debt go away, stop governments overspend, nor created a unified fiscal union between the member states with a central bank of last resort. at best it would have, in the future, created a fund from which EU counrties could go for handouts. it was a politically motivated power grab, which has done its job of screwing Cameron and the UK, only currently its political not economic damage.

 

[sten_super]

Dont judge europe by the right-wing nutters, loons and crazies you probably come across and befriend. Whatever little pocket of cranks you wish to highlight you cannot get away from the fact that each country you mention all democratically elected a goverment which, in general, integrates. As I say, it's not a perfect integration but there is a general will and it is evident time and time again.

One country out of 27, well 26 now, does not fundamentally disprove my arguement does it? 1 in 26 is hardly the norm.

So half of Belgium is 'a little pocket of cranks'?

The point is that you hold up 'Europeans' (as if there's such a thing) as some utopian race of people who get on all the time, all want to be friends, don't have any disagreements and live in a wonderful world of free movement and harmony, while we live in desolate Britain, with constant pointless bickering and isolationism. The truth of course is that both us and our continental brethren live with a massive cross-section of all types of people.

 

[sten_super]

you understand wrongly, it apparently wasnt negotiable. commentators opinined in recent weeks that Merkel was backing it precisely so that it could be discarded for UK support on other matters, but somewhere along the line Sarkozy seems to have decided that it was vital. thats speculation of course, either way understand this: it has nothing to do with the debt crisis. the imposition of this tax wont suddenly make the debt go away, stop governments overspend, nor created a unified fiscal union between the member states with a central bank of last resort. at best it would have, in the future, created a fund from which EU counrties could go for handouts. it was a politically motivated power grab, which has done its job of screwing Cameron and the UK, only currently its political not economic damage.

My understanding is that the fundamental difference between Sarkozy and Merkel was that Merkel wanted to re-open the Lisbon Treaty and write these powers into that. This would have been difficult politically but would have given any resolution real enforceability, and meant that the results could be enforced by the European Commission. Sarkozy wanted an 'intergovernmental agreement' which basically means that the national governments would be responsible for running the scheme, primarily because the handover of powers to Brussels was not a go-er for him domestically (with an election coming up next year). The easiest way of ensuring that the resolution wasn't in the Lisbon (or a new) Treaty was to ensure that they didn't have the cooperation of all 27 Member States - so he pressed for the inclusion of these potential financial services regulations, knowing that would alienate the UK and force Cameron to use the veto, also giving him a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The point is that you hold up 'Europeans' (as if there's such a thing) as some utopian race of people who get on all the time, all want to be friends, don't have any disagreements and live in a wonderful world of free movement and harmony, while we live in desolate Britain, with constant pointless bickering and isolationism. The truth of course is that both us and our continental brethren live with a massive cross-section of all types of people.

No I do not not. It's not perfect, and I have said this numerously. I have listed what I like about mainland Europe. See previous threads.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So half of Belgium is 'a little pocket of cranks'?

A medium sized pocket of cranks is probably a better description. They need to move on.

 

[beorhthelm]

My understanding is that the fundamental difference between Sarkozy and Merkel was that Merkel wanted to re-open the Lisbon Treaty and write these powers into that.[...]

i think that sums it up. only to add that Merkel and Sarkozy (or Germany and France, they are really being pushed rather than leading) are further apart than the popular media show. this is largly the reason the whole debacle has dragged on because they cant agree on a proper solution and continue to vie for their nations interests.

 

[Triggaaar]

Are we still a European force? Yes, of course.

But the Euro is not our currency, it's theirs. They decided to let in countries not fit to join whilst pushing this federalist agenda. It's risk and reward - we lose out when the Euro is strong, so when the Euro is f***ed it's illogical for the UK to bail it out, otherwise we suffer the consequences of risk in the bad times without getting the benefits of reward in the good times.

And I see little point in beating Cameron up over the recent summit. This debacle goes way back to De Gaulle's opposition to our joining the EEC. He's merely a player in a drama that's been running for 40 years.

Things need to be brought into perspective - we still have influence with the US, Commonwealth and one of the main financial markets in the world. Italy has a fleet of ice cream vans, France has a lot of Greek debt.

Mmm, ice cream

 

[paddy]

The EU is corrupt and undemocratic and hates anyone who questions its authority.

Absolutely this. The EU is home to washed up, embittered, and unelectable politicians who care little for the views of the people of Europe and more for their chauffeur driven cars, diplomatic immunity, and large offices. Coincidently, the people complaining the loudest are people like Mandy (who was an EU Commissioner) and D. Milliband (who might hope to get the foreign policy brief from Ashton).

We were right not to join the Euro and we are right now. The whole miserable venture is thankfully already showing signs of slowing down, with Ireland suggesting they may need a referendum (that said, the EU's tactic is simply to keep asking until they get the desired answer).

And for all those who oppose the Coalition's spending cuts and Cameron's veto, consider this: slower deficit reduction would actually be illegal under the Franco-German pact.

 

[paddy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither of the previous governments were elected by the voters of Greece and Italy as they were coalitions, just as Cameron did not win the election in 2010. Nobody votes for a coalition, it is a compromise between politicians wiling to do deals and sacrifice their principles, well some are forced to sacrifice their principles, just ask Clegg.

The key is that those who ultimately form the government actually stood for election - they have a direct personal mandate from the population. Neither the new Greek PM nor the new Italian PM have ever been voted for in any direct capacity by the people of the countries' they now claim to legitimately represent. The reality is they are the puppets of France and Germany, forcing through unnecessary cuts and making the lives of millions of people miserable just so the eurozone remains in is present form and Mercozy can save face. Neither the Italians nor the Greeks have economies that are in any way comparable to Germany's. To suggest that they can share a currency, interest rates and now harmonised taxes is economic lunacy. They ought to be able to leave the Euro and devalue whilst remaining in the single market.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

full of euro liberal luvvies

Which reminds me, I'm off to see Eddie Izzard tonight.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Of course I cannot say for sure, as I have no idea what future EU deals between the 26 will be struck but I'm sure they will look after themselves.....and be favourable to route finances through them instead of a little island cut off from the real business.

According to today's press Deutsche Bank is the largest single bank employer in the city. Other eurozone nations also have very significant presence. I think this might change. Especially if future agreements within the new EU make it attractive to route transactions elsewhere. The big economies also see the UK as a european gateway due to our power and influence in Europe; will they now? If you want to go to the heart of Europe I'd say Frankfurt will be a better future option.

As a follow up to this there was a British chap from NordDeutche Landesbank called called Tom Brown on telly last night. He was saying that his great fear is that London could loose a lot of it's european 'tradtional' and 'vanilla' banking which contributes a fair chunk to the square mile. He made a distinction between vanilla and other banking and said that Cameron was only looking out for the latter. He alluded that whilst London could become a centre of excellence for some sectors of banking a lot of foreign banks, a sizeable chunk, who do regular stuff will see no point having a base in the square mile.