Are we still a European force?

[Westdene Seagull]

Well that raises a ?

If we elect mp's to do a job at Westminster why are the allowed to then send others over to Brussels to then tell Westminster what to do ?
One tier of the system needs culling ..... Westminsters call!

Let's remember that the EU has effectively forced government change in two member countries - Italy and Greece - both of whom had democratically elected governments and whose voters got no say in the change of government. The EU is corrupt from the top to the bottom and if anything needs culling it is the EU and it's entire structure. That's not very likely to happen given the current setup allows France and Germany to control and rule Europe. Therefore we should leave.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You really have bought into this euro democracy thingy !!!

Yes. I'd like a say in how the 26 other nations act. It's pretty obvious the 26 are going to make decisions which now benefit themselves, with no UK consideration. And what can we do about it? Thanks to Cameron's negotiation skills zilch.

 

[Brovion]

lol you guys think the people on the telly are in control and make the decisions.........might be time to research banking cartels and the IMF.

It's a valid point. I remember Tony Benn in 1975 saying that the EEC was nothing more than a capitalist club run by bankers and industrialists. I thought he was wrong at the time, but the years (and events) have proved he was right and I was wrong.

 

[beorhthelm]

shall we see how it plays out first? we are still in the EU after all. We dont know how the other states will get any new treaty through their parliaments yet. Sarkozy might not be French President before this thing is settled down.

 

[kano]

Yes. I'd like a say in how the 26 other nations act. It's pretty obvious the 26 are going to make decisions which now benefit themselves, with no UK consideration. And what can we do about it? Thanks to Cameron's negotiation skills zilch.

The problem with this post is that it implies that these countries desperate to save the economic skins would have been willing to negotiate something more to our liking if someone else had asked, or if we asked differently. Its just not true, jesus money christ the son of the negotiating god wouldnt have had any luck.

He had two choices. Put up and shut up or leave, he went for what he saw as the lesser of two evils. Personally I agree, others wont, thats fair enough but dont imply that someone else would have found a magical 3rd option.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Let's remember that the EU has effectively forced government change in two member countries - Italy and Greece - both of whom had democratically elected governments and whose voters got no say in the change of government. The EU is corrupt from the top to the bottom and if anything needs culling it is the EU and it's entire structure. That's not very likely to happen given the current setup allows France and Germany to control and rule Europe. Therefore we should leave.

According to Nigel Farage of UKIP we have already opened to door to exiting out of the EU.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

but dont imply that someone else would have found a magical 3rd option.

Turning up at a meeting, armed with a few allies, and negotiating a few concessions is hardly a magic third option. I'm pretty certain a few squeezed countries could have sided with us. But Cameron had already distanced himself from most leaders when he pulled out of that centre-right group.

The original question is whether we're a force or not. To return empty handed suggests we're not.

 

[tubaman]

Yes. I'd like a say in how the 26 other nations act. It's pretty obvious the 26 are going to make decisions which now benefit themselves, with no UK consideration. And what can we do about it? Thanks to Cameron's negotiation skills zilch.

No, two countries will decide what is best for them and all the others will tag along and hope that it they will not go under.

 

[Simster]

"Fog in Channel. Continent Isolated" - as the famous headline had it.

Big laughs.

 

[Simster]

No, two countries will decide what is best for them and all the others will tag along and hope that it they will not go under.

If that is true, then Cameron is even more of an idiot than HT is making him sound.

You make it sound like the other countries have got no choice but to go along with it. Maybe all the other European leaders have decided that taking the stance of "No wait, I'm not having that. I'm taking my ball home" is the act of an ignoramus.

 

[kano]

Turning up at a meeting, armed with a few allies, and negotiating a few concessions is hardly a magic third option. I'm pretty certain a few squeezed countries could have sided with us. But Cameron had already distanced himself from most leaders when he pulled out of that centre-right group.

The original question is whether we're a force or not. To return empty handed suggests we're not.

Your still assuming that other countries would support concessions that benefit the UK, and that the French and the Germans would be willing to negotiate if we'd had some smaller allies. I remain unconvinced and i think its typical of the problems with our politics that no-one in opposition to the man has the decency to stand up and say 'yep fair enough shit situation you did all you could do'. People and the media would much rather try and create the perception that in fact it was all their apposition's fault.

As to the original question, of course we are, but we are not part of the euro and we are not interested in a centralized government so we are somewhat marginalized in this case.

 

[BigGully]

If that is true, then Cameron is even more of an idiot than HT is making him sound.

You make it sound like the other countries have got no choice but to go along with it. Maybe all the other European leaders have decided that taking the stance of "No wait, I'm not having that. I'm taking my ball home" is the act of an ignoramus.

But most of the other European countries are net beneficiaries, why would they consider not going along with it.

 

[Common as Mook]

Your still assuming that other countries would support concessions that benefit the UK, and that the French and the Germans would be willing to negotiate if we'd had some smaller allies. I remain unconvinced and i think its typical of the problems with our politics that no-one in opposition to the man has the decency to stand up and say 'yep fair enough shit situation you did all you could do'. People and the media would much rather try and create the perception that in fact it was all their apposition's fault.

As to the original question, of course we are, but we are not part of the euro and we are not interested in a centralized government so we are somewhat marginalized in this case.

Of course, this is spot on.

 

[Simster]

But most of the other European countries are net beneficiaries, why would they consider not going along with it.

Really? So the EU is only built with money from France, Germany and the UK, while the other 24 countries are net beneficiaries?

Or maybe you're just making it up as you go along to suit your rather flimsy argument, because that is absolute bollocks.

Take a look at this:
Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[beorhthelm]

You make it sound like the other countries have got no choice but to go along with it.

do they? or at least do they think they have? the european project has been driven along for decades without really being questioned by the politicians. yet when they go to the people its much more 50/50, or they lose and run a revote to get the right answer. maybe other european leaders might decide there is another option to not following the Franco-German decisions. even the French and Germans arent so sure anymore. only today the Bundsbank is saying the channeling of bailout funds through the IMF isnt technically/legally correct.

 

[BigGully]

Really? So the EU is only built with money from France, Germany and the UK, while the other 24 countries are net beneficiaries?

Or maybe you're just making it up as you go along to suit your rather flimsy argument, because that is absolute bollocks.

Take a look at this:
Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Financial Times 2011-2009 figures:

Winners and losers: how much each country gets net from the EU per person (2009)
€
winners Luxembourg 2,365
Lithuania 438
Estonia 416
Greece 267
Hungary 265
Latvia 219
Portugal 196
Poland 160
Czech Republic 150
Slovenia 93
Belgium 90
Slovakia 89
Bulgaria 77
Romania 75
Malta 17
Spain 10
Cyprus -34
Ireland -35
Sweden -44
Austria -60
United Kingdom -63
Netherlands -90
France -100
Italy -101
Germany -107
Finland -114
losers Denmark -211
Source: European Commission

 

[Triggaaar]

Very many of the users of this board live closer to Europe than Birmingham and yet wish to be divorced from it.

That's why I wouldn't want a referendum, many people will be anti Europe for the wrong reasons. However, that doesn't mean we should want to be part of the mess that Europe is currently in.

Europe is in a mess because of the Euro, and they want us to help pay to fix it. We chose not to join the Euro because it looked like a bad idea. We were right, so why should we now pay for it?

Germany and France get exasperated by us,and we listen to the crazies on the right of the Tory party whilst Dopey Dave goes belly up to them whilst pretending he's stood up to our European rivals (?) and been damned good at it in a stiff upper lipped sort of way.

Germany and France want to control our city and take our money, and Cameron said no. But I get the feeling you'd be against any decision by a Tory government.

 

[BigGully]

That's why I wouldn't want a referendum, many people will be anti Europe for the wrong reasons.

And what might those 'wrong' reasons be then, not agreeing with your reason I suppose !!!

 

[looney]

Yes. I'd like a say in how the 26 other nations act. It's pretty obvious the 26 are going to make decisions which now benefit themselves, with no UK consideration. And what can we do about it? Thanks to Cameron's negotiation skills zilch.

Wot? I hate Cameron as a two-faced, snide, vindictive little weisal, but the only talent he has is for negottiating, after all he cut a deal with the libdumbs to form a Govt.

He offered a compromise which Sarkozy turned down forcing him to say no, its there the particular blame lies.


Whats the point at being at the EU "table" when all they serve up is poison?

We need to toughen up tthe treason laws imo.

 

[Simster]

Financial Times 2011-2009 figures:

Winners and losers: how much each country gets net from the EU per person (2009)
€
winners Luxembourg 2,365
Lithuania 438
Estonia 416
Greece 267
Hungary 265
Latvia 219
Portugal 196
Poland 160
Czech Republic 150
Slovenia 93
Belgium 90
Slovakia 89
Bulgaria 77
Romania 75
Malta 17
Spain 10
Cyprus -34
Ireland -35
Sweden -44
Austria -60
United Kingdom -63
Netherlands -90
France -100
Italy -101
Germany -107
Finland -114
losers Denmark -211
Source: European Commission

FFS, I can see without bothering to add up that your total does not equal zero. So WTF is that supposed to prove?