[Albion] Albion (Hughton?) performance - the short term effect of Ashworth's appointment?

[Stat Brother]

Which bit of

There were 26 matches in the 2018/19 PL season before 12 Feb 2019. At that point we were 14th in the League, with 27 points. PPG = 1.04.

Since 12 Feb 2019, there have been 12 PL games. We finished in 17th, having achieved a further 9 points from those 12 games. PPG = 0.75.


don't you understand?

The point I was making is that the average PPG was already on a considerable downturn prior to 12.02.
What with the team having only got 1 point in January and 1 other point in Feb prior to 12.02.

Suggesting sliding down the league and PPG because Ashworth's appointment is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The point I was making is that the average PPG was already on a considerable downturn prior to 12.02.
What with the team having only got 1 point in December and 1 other point in Feb prior to 12.02.

Suggesting sliding down the league and PPG because Ashworth's appointment is disingenuous to say the least.

1 point in December? Did I imagine us beating Huddersfield,Everton and Palace then?

 

[Stat Brother]

1 point in December? Did I imagine us beating Huddersfield,Everton and Palace then?

Sorry 1 point in January (but I guess you already knew that)

 

[Urchin]

Probably nothing to read into, but interesting nonetheless...

 

[Machiavelli]

Stayed specifically to gain football knowledge from yourself

I'm so glad about this, because we need some help on here, as I'm sure you're well aware

 

[Machiavelli]

Like who?

No one's claiming he actually got CH the sack. The very clear premise is that it accidentally disrupted things and allowed divisions that were there under the surface to fester, That's literally it. Based on two things, the stats that back it up and the OPs business experience.

Agree with this, although can I introduce you to the apostrophe that shoudl be positioned between OP and s . I can't do many things well, but pedantry's one of them.

 

[Machiavelli]

The point I was making is that the average PPG was already on a considerable downturn prior to 12.02.
What with the team having only got 1 point in January and 1 other point in Feb prior to 12.02.

Suggesting sliding down the league and PPG because Ashworth's appointment is disingenuous to say the least.

I've already asked another (less intelligent) poster if they know what a word means on this thread, but do you know what disingenuous (as opposed to December) means?

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

I've seen the arrival of technical directors/directors of football unsettle and unseat managers before, but they seldom affect players or their performances.

I don't think Dan Ashworth made the players turn in that shocker against Bournemouth, or inspired them to a magnificent showing at Palace. I don't believe he was responsible for the injuries to Gross or Izquierdo either.

Results certainly fell away in 2019 but performances had been poor long before that - the three 1-0 wins against West Ham, Newcastle and Wolves could all have been defeats.

 

[Machiavelli]

I've seen the arrival of technical directors/directors of football unsettle and unseat managers before, but they seldom affect players or their performances.

I don't think Dan Ashworth made the players turn in that shocker against Bournemouth, or inspired them to a magnificent showing at Palace. I don't believe he was responsible for the injuries to Gross or Izquierdo either.

Results certainly fell away in 2019 but performances had been poor long before that - the three 1-0 wins against West Ham, Newcastle and Wolves could all have been defeats.

This is an interesting thread, and there haven't been too many convincing arguments against what's being insinuated on it, but this clearly challenges it. I take it you're of the view that this is the right decision, and that now was the right moment to bring a quite brilliant working relationship between manager and the club to an end.

 

[maffew]

The stats may (or may not) be purely circumstantial. I'm sure there are other stats to support/or refute
But its a perfectly valid, and not unreasonable suggestion (if that's what it is or am I misinterpreting) that Ashworth may perhaps have been bought in as a second opinion, extra man on the ground, fact finding, like an ofsted report.

Someone else said elsewhere (I was Hughton in), glad to see the end of this season and look forward to see what next one brings. Hopefully something more refreshing than this one, this year has been beyond dull on the pitch

 

[Stat Brother]

I've seen the arrival of technical directors/directors of football unsettle and unseat managers before, but they seldom affect players or their performances.

I don't think Dan Ashworth made the players turn in that shocker against Bournemouth, or inspired them to a magnificent showing at Palace. I don't believe he was responsible for the injuries to Gross or Izquierdo either.

Results certainly fell away in 2019 but performances had been poor long before that - the three 1-0 wins against West Ham, Newcastle and Wolves could all have been defeats.

Careful that kind of talk will have [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] somewhat patronisingly putting you on the naughty step.

 

[Stat Brother]

I've already asked another (less intelligent) poster if they know what a word means on this thread, but do you know what disingenuous (as opposed to December) means?

Scurries for the online dictionary ... & ...

(of a person or their behaviour) slightly dishonest, or not speaking the complete truth:

You had me worried for a minute there.

Although I prefer the - Thesaurus: synonyms and related words - Sly & devious


All of which is around what I was going for, that being:-

Not a whole truth.
&
Detrimental, or should that be a 'sly, devious dig' at the 'victim', in this case Mr Ashworth.


Oh and 'should' has the L before the D, not the other way round. :tongue:



All mistakes in this post are for comedy effect.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I've seen the arrival of technical directors/directors of football unsettle and unseat managers before, but they seldom affect players or their performances.

I don't think Dan Ashworth made the players turn in that shocker against Bournemouth, or inspired them to a magnificent showing at Palace. I don't believe he was responsible for the injuries to Gross or Izquierdo either.

Results certainly fell away in 2019 but performances had been poor long before that - the three 1-0 wins against West Ham, Newcastle and Wolves could all have been defeats.

Careful that kind of talk will have [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] somewhat patronisingly putting you on the naughty step.

I've worked for a small technology company that grew from 25 to 50 people and I sat in every board meeting we had over the last four years before the business was sold as I reported directly to the CTO. Initially we didn't even have a sales and marketing director and the managers just handled it between us. This was allowing the company to grow but, we felt, not fast enough, and one contact that we had in the industry was appointed sales director. Immediately the duties that related to everything from generating leads to pricing up jobs were taken off the people who had been doing them. But, there was also another voice in board and management meetings and the voice did not agree with the way things were done before.

I'm not going to try and pretend that it affected the developers or testers on the ground who just cracked on with it, but it affected their priorities, affected their salaries and affected the atmosphere in the office. The first two deals we landed were priced incorrectly and caused more stress. Ultimately. though, we sold the business which had doubled in size. I moved on and so did the CTO I reported to.

Maybe you can't equate football to other businesses but I'm highlighting an instance where a senior appointment initially acted as a detriment to the business before working out in the long term.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Bloom isn't stupid – nor does he do short-term thinking. I reckon the decision to get rid of Hughton was taken MONTHS ago. Before Ashworth arrived, maybe even towards the beginning of the season. Bloom has big plans for the club and he clearly didn't think Hughton was the man who could help him achieve those goals. And, as a result, he needed to bring in someone else who COULD have more of an influence (DA) over what goes on, overseeing a younger/more driven/more dynamic/more positive manager. Dare I say it, someone with more of an ego and/or nasty streak.

Whether any of the fallout (DA's arrival and subsequent 'influence', rumours of player discontent, the dip in form, the change in formation, etc, etc) was engineered by anyone remains to be seen, which it won't be, of course, because these things are kept quiet. But this was more than just 'no win in nine' which I heard yesterday was his justification. It's a massive gamble, but also a bit of a 'changing of the guard' moment, with the biggest upheaval on the first team playing side for years (new captain, new manager and presumably a big squad turnover).

Over to you, Dan...

 

[Seasider78]

Unfortunately for Hughton we have a fan as an owner who does actually go to games. Like a large amount of the fan base he had lost the will to live with what was on display and faith in the managers ability to turn it around.

I am sure he consulted Ashworth and Barber with his decision and ensured they starting taking steps for when the inevitable happened but not surprised this is a bloom led decision

 

[Nobby]

Bloom isn't stupid – nor does he do short-term thinking. I reckon the decision to get rid of Hughton was taken MONTHS ago. Before Ashworth arrived, maybe even towards the beginning of the season. Bloom has big plans for the club and he clearly didn't think Hughton was the man who could help him achieve those goals. And, as a result, he needed to bring in someone else who COULD have more of an influence (DA) over what goes on, overseeing a younger/more driven/more dynamic/more positive manager. Dare I say it, someone with more of an ego and/or nasty streak.

Whether any of the fallout (DA's arrival and subsequent 'influence', rumours of player discontent, the dip in form, the change in formation, etc, etc) was engineered by anyone remains to be seen, which it won't be, of course, because these things are kept quiet. But this was more than just 'no win in nine' which I heard yesterday was his justification. It's a massive gamble, but also a bit of a 'changing of the guard' moment, with the biggest upheaval on the first team playing side for years (new captain, new manager and presumably a big squad turnover).

Over to you, Dan...

Yep, you could well be right on this. Long term planning would have included a change in manager.

It’s the “Over to you, Dan” bit that worries me.

 

[the right footed denilson]

Unfortunately for Hughton we have a fan as an owner who does actually go to games. Like a large amount of the fan base he had lost the will to live with what was on display and faith in the managers ability to turn it around.

I am sure he consulted Ashworth and Barber with his decision and ensured they starting taking steps for when the inevitable happened but not surprised this is a bloom led decision

Exactly. Simple consolidation not enough for a supporter. Want to enjoy themselves too and see progression. Not simply about collecting the TV monies.

 

[Goldstone1976]

I've worked for a small technology company that grew from 25 to 50 people and I sat in every board meeting we had over the last four years before the business was sold as I reported directly to the CTO. Initially we didn't even have a sales and marketing director and the managers just handled it between us. This was allowing the company to grow but, we felt, not fast enough, and one contact that we had in the industry was appointed sales director. Immediately the duties that related to everything from generating leads to pricing up jobs were taken off the people who had been doing them. But, there was also another voice in board and management meetings and the voice did not agree with the way things were done before.

I'm not going to try and pretend that it affected the developers or testers on the ground who just cracked on with it, but it affected their priorities, affected their salaries and affected the atmosphere in the office. The first two deals we landed were priced incorrectly and caused more stress. Ultimately. though, we sold the business which had doubled in size. I moved on and so did the CTO I reported to.

Maybe you can't equate football to other businesses but I'm highlighting an instance where a senior appointment initially acted as a detriment to the business before working out in the long term.

Your last paragraph is, as you and a few others obviously know, what I’m suggesting may have been a contributory factor at the club.

Having been on the receiving end of new senior people with opinions coming into a management team on multiple occasions, and having made the decision to do it on multiple more, I can honestly say that not once has it not caused ructions in the established team. Which, as someone ( I think it was you actually) said earlier is kind of the point of the appointment in the first place - or at least, the introducer is seeking material change and knows that ructions (possibly severe enough to lead to departures) will inevitably follow.

You make the point that football is a different industry to, well, just about any other and that some people think that normal management considerations don’t apply. To which my response would be: yes, but so are all industries - commercial fishing is the same as steel manufacturing is the same as software development? It’s only football where different rules apply? Bollox! I’d also observe that, in any event, football is littered with precisely the situation we have had at the Albion (a new Technical Director or whatever) turns up and a short while later someone senior on the playing staff leaves - often the manager.

I would absolutely accept, and have never suggested, that Bloom did not appoint Ashworth as a means to oust Hughton, and that his motives for the appointment were entirely in the best interests of the club. I also absolutely accept that Ashworth has probably just been trying to do his job as he sees it, again in the best interests of the club, and also that such execution of his duties did not involve undue day to day influence over the players.

However, the appointment of Ashworth was foreseeably a destabilising move in the short term. Foreseeable because the industry is irrelevant - it was a “people” thing, not a “football” thing that I am both suggesting may have contributed to the drop in performance on the field (through Chris having been destabilised and thus not able to focus 100% on on the field performance) and thus to Chris’ departure, and that I predicted back in September last year when Ashworth’s appointment was announced would happen (though I said Winstanley would be the victim, not Chris).

Whether my suggestion is right or wrong is now irrelevant (though it is irritating that so many on here are misrepresenting what I’m saying) - what’s done is done. It’s time to move on, appoint a new manager, and prepare for another season of PL football.

UTA.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Bloom isn't stupid – nor does he do short-term thinking. I reckon the decision to get rid of Hughton was taken MONTHS ago. Before Ashworth arrived, maybe even towards the beginning of the season. Bloom has big plans for the club and he clearly didn't think Hughton was the man who could help him achieve those goals. And, as a result, he needed to bring in someone else who COULD have more of an influence (DA) over what goes on, overseeing a younger/more driven/more dynamic/more positive manager. Dare I say it, someone with more of an ego and/or nasty streak.

Whether any of the fallout (DA's arrival and subsequent 'influence', rumours of player discontent, the dip in form, the change in formation, etc, etc) was engineered by anyone remains to be seen, which it won't be, of course, because these things are kept quiet. But this was more than just 'no win in nine' which I heard yesterday was his justification. It's a massive gamble, but also a bit of a 'changing of the guard' moment, with the biggest upheaval on the first team playing side for years (new captain, new manager and presumably a big squad turnover).

Over to you, Dan...

Good post.

It passed me by at the time, but Ashworth's quote on taking up the job was "My job is to try and keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as possible" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47294885

I wish I'd noticed it as it is hardly a ringing endorsement and does not even mention CH by name. You could almost say it was "somewhat patronising"

 

[Taybha]

Has THE QUESTION, been asked?

What does Ashworth actually do?

If it has, sorry missed it.