[Albion] Albion (Hughton?) performance - the short term effect of Ashworth's appointment?

[Goldstone1976]

Good post.

It passed me by at the time, but Ashworth's quote on taking up the job was "My job is to try and keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as possible" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47294885

I wish I'd noticed it as it is hardly a ringing endorsement and does not even mention CH by name. You could almost say it was "somewhat patronising"

Put yourself in the shoes of Chris at the time of that quote. A new senior man comes in; parts of his job description are made public - those parts relate to recruitment and not management; and the first words out of his mouth are those.

And that’s not going to piss you off? Not referred to by name by a person who’s only just arrived. Still worse if you believe that your job security has absolutely nothing to do with the new man anyway...

As I say - a “people” issue. One that was foreseeable.

Oh - and Ashworth’s press release would have been approved by others in the senior management team. And Chris would have known that it would have been... but it’s ok, because Chris would have been able to ignore such things. Really?

Would you? (Not specifically you, GB, obvs!)

 

[Guinness Boy]

Put yourself in the shoes of Chris at the time of that quote. A new senior man comes in; parts of his job description are made public - those parts relate to recruitment and not management; and the first words out of his mouth are those.

And that’s not going to piss you off? Not referred to by name by a person who’s only just arrived. Still worse if you believe that your job security has absolutely nothing to do with the new man anyway...

As I say - a “people” issue. One that was foreseeable.

Oh - and Ashworth’s press release would have been approved by others in the senior management team. And Chris would have known that it would have been... but it’s ok, because Chris would have been able to ignore such things. Really?

Would you? (Not specifically you, GB, obvs!)

No way CH can have been happy with that press release no matter how chilled out he is. As ever, on this thread, I agree with you.

 

[Bozza]

If Ashworth saw his task as being "to keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as possible", he's not had a great start has he?

 

[Steve in Japan]

If Ashworth saw his task as being "to keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as possible", he's not had a great start has he?

Maybe he meant "to keep my first team manager in a job for as long as possible". Slip of the fingers, perhaps?

 

[Nobby]

If Ashworth saw his task as being "to keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as possible", he's not had a great start has he?

Maybe he’s already had a written warning!

Let’s hope he achieves his objectives for a bit longer over the next few months.
Otherwise our next manager will be gone by end of September

 

[Stat Brother]

It seems we're over thinking, a little.

I dont for one minute think Ashworth was bought in to oust CH, that seems to be the direction this is heading.

Even if that was the case CH's stubbornness throughout all of 2019 made it a lot for Mr Bloom to pull the plug.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Possibly...........Ashworth saw his task as being "to keep the first-team manager in a job for as long as necessary", just about keep us up then replace? Maybe CH then saw this as an opportunity for a pay off! If so did very well, I presume. Win win.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Agree with this, although can I introduce you to the apostrophe that shoudl be positioned between OP and s . I can't do many things well, but pedantry's one of them.

Spelling and grammar are not, I take it...

 

[timbha]

Let’s not over cook this. I think I get what Ashworth meant in as much that if he does a good job (signs and develops good players, keeps them fit and competitive, makes good money on transfers to re invest) it will result in better results and consequently the longevity of the first team manager. He would have been setting himself up if he had mentioned CH by name.

These people pick their words carefully.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Let’s not over cook this. I think I get what Ashworth meant in as much that if he does a good job (signs and develops good players, keeps them fit and competitive, makes good money on transfers to re invest) it will result in better results and consequently the longevity of the first team manager. He would have been setting himself up if he had mentioned CH by name.

These people pick their words carefully.

They certainly do. And it’s definitely true that by not mentioning Chris by name (a decision that would have had the tacit agreement of others - most likely PB - since there’s no way the club would allow Ashworth to issue a Press Release without approval), Ashworth was avoiding “setting himself up”.

However, and this has been the nun* of my case throughout the thread, did anyone consider the likely impact on Chris of that release being issued as it was? Did anyone say “Hang on, that’s likely to piss him off, isn’t it? Are we sure about that wording?”

It has all the hallmarks of high IQ, combined with type A personalities; low EQ.

All imo.

Edit: * this word was supposed to be “nub”, but I quite like the phrase “...nun of my case...” so I’m leaving it!

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Your last paragraph is, as you and a few others obviously know, what I’m suggesting may have been a contributory factor at the club.

Having been on the receiving end of new senior people with opinions coming into a management team on multiple occasions, and having made the decision to do it on multiple more, I can honestly say that not once has it not caused ructions in the established team. Which, as someone ( I think it was you actually) said earlier is kind of the point of the appointment in the first place - or at least, the introducer is seeking material change and knows that ructions (possibly severe enough to lead to departures) will inevitably follow.

You make the point that football is a different industry to, well, just about any other and that some people think that normal management considerations don’t apply. To which my response would be: yes, but so are all industries - commercial fishing is the same as steel manufacturing is the same as software development? It’s only football where different rules apply? Bollox! I’d also observe that, in any event, football is littered with precisely the situation we have had at the Albion (a new Technical Director or whatever) turns up and a short while later someone senior on the playing staff leaves - often the manager.

I would absolutely accept, and have never suggested, that Bloom did not appoint Ashworth as a means to oust Hughton, and that his motives for the appointment were entirely in the best interests of the club. I also absolutely accept that Ashworth has probably just been trying to do his job as he sees it, again in the best interests of the club, and also that such execution of his duties did not involve undue day to day influence over the players.

However, the appointment of Ashworth was foreseeably a destabilising move in the short term. Foreseeable because the industry is irrelevant - it was a “people” thing, not a “football” thing that I am both suggesting may have contributed to the drop in performance on the field (through Chris having been destabilised and thus not able to focus 100% on on the field performance) and thus to Chris’ departure, and that I predicted back in September last year when Ashworth’s appointment was announced would happen (though I said Winstanley would be the victim, not Chris).

Whether my suggestion is right or wrong is now irrelevant (though it is irritating that so many on here are misrepresenting what I’m saying) - what’s done is done. It’s time to move on, appoint a new manager, and prepare for another season of PL football.

UTA.

I'd make the point that football IS a special case simply because of the unusual power balance between senior staff and the shop floor. At many clubs, players are the top earners and know that a manager's or coach's position is far more precarious than theirs. Many (not all) are utterly self-obsessed and a change in the status of the manager will barely be noticed. Unless Dan Ashworth actually took training, I imagine some players might even be in the dark as to who he is. Even if he handles contract negotiations, that would normally all be done with agents.

True, the new man's arrival might have affected Chris's focus although, knowing him, I doubt that very much.

 

[Machiavelli]

Spelling and grammar are not, I take it...

Saw that myself this morning. Fully deserved.

 

[Goldstone1976]

I'd make the point that football IS a special case simply because of the unusual power balance between senior staff and the shop floor. At many clubs, players are the top earners and know that a manager's or coach's position is far more precarious than theirs. Many (not all) are utterly self-obsessed and a change in the status of the manager will barely be noticed. Unless Dan Ashworth actually took training, I imagine some players might even be in the dark as to who he is. Even if he handles contract negotiations, that would normally all be done with agents.

True, the new man's arrival might have affected Chris's focus although, knowing him, I doubt that very much.

On your first point, it sounds very similar to the culture in sales-driven, US tech product companies, of which I have run four. In all of them the top sales people (who were generally the same people year after year - until they burnt out, or the Colombian marching powder did for them) all earned FAR more than I did as CEO and were viewed as Gods by the Board because, err, without their performances we would go out of business. They were far more important to the (short term) future of the business than me; many actively tried to use that power to undermine me when I made decisions they didn’t like; nearly all were talented, driven, 20- or early 30-something men. It’s honestly a fallacy to think that football is unique in management terms. EVERY industry and EVERY company thinks its unique in my experience. All are, to some extent. However, it’s the similarities that have struck me as more noticeable rather than the differences.

On your second point: I bow to your undoubted greater knowledge of Chris’ likely response to being undermined. Thanks!

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

On your first point, it sounds very similar to the culture in sales-driven, US tech product companies, of which I have run four. In all of them the top sales people (who were generally the same people year after year - until they burnt out, or the Colombian marching powder did for them) all earned FAR more than I did as CEO and were viewed as Gods by the Board because, err, without their performances we would go out of business. They were far more important to the (short term) future of the business than me; many actively tried to use that power to undermine me when I made decisions they didn’t like; nearly all were talented, driven, 20- or early 30-something men. It’s honestly a fallacy to think that football is unique in management terms. EVERY industry and EVERY company thinks its unique in my experience. All are, to some extent. However, it’s the similarities that have struck me as more noticeable rather than the differences.

On your second point: I bow to your undoubted greater knowledge of Chris’ likely response to being undermined. Thanks!

Did the sales people all have agents blowing smoke up their backsides ...?

 

[lizard]

Yesterday evening I saw a blue car drive past my house, later on the lightbulb on my landing blew, bloody blue car.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Did the sales people all have agents blowing smoke up their backsides ...?

You know the answer to that! I would counter with “Are you saying that all would be sweetness and light if the players didn’t have agents”?

What the sales staff did have was “our competitor has just offered me 3x my income - they tapped me up - what are you going to do about that?”, and “I don’t want to represent our company in NYC any more, I want to represent us in Boston. Why? Because I’ll perform better there, and so will the company. Yes, I know there’s already a player (sorry, salesman) in that position (sorry, territory), but my career is short, I have to look after number 1”.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Yesterday evening I saw a blue car drive past my house, later on the lightbulb on my landing blew, bloody blue car.

Best example of “it’s just a coincidence” I’ve seen! And maybe it is.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Did the sales people all have agents blowing smoke up their backsides ...?

Addendum...

On the specific point we're discussing, a person of some possible relevance says:

"Honestly, I don't think there is a lot of difference between leading a company and leading a football team, not from the leadership perspective. The context is different but the principles the same..."

And on my general point in this thread, the same person says:

"It always sound easy when 'experts' on TV says what should have been done. But it is different when you are dealing with people. HOW you communicate your message, the words you use, is something where a lot of leaders fail"

...and...

"If you want an environment where people feel confidence and safety then the leader must be the first one to admit to mistakes...When it comes to leadership, you first need to understand yourself: "Why do I react the way I do? What are my weaknesses?" If you don't understand yourself, you are just roleplaying a leader."


That person? Graham Potter.

 

[Machiavelli]

Addendum...

On the specific point we're discussing, a person of some possible relevance says:

"Honestly, I don't think there is a lot of difference between leading a company and leading a football team, not from the leadership perspective. The context is different but the principles the same..."

And on my general point in this thread, the same person says:

"It always sound easy when 'experts' on TV says what should have been done. But it is different when you are dealing with people. HOW you communicate your message, the words you use, is something where a lot of leaders fail"

...and...

"If you want an environment where people feel confidence and safety then the leader must be the first one to admit to mistakes...When it comes to leadership, you first need to understand yourself: "Why do I react the way I do? What are my weaknesses?" If you don't understand yourself, you are just roleplaying a leader."


That person? Graham Potter.

Very revealing. Thanks for this.

PS I know myself enough that I'd have just told your salespeople -- sorry, salesAlphamen -- to do one.

 

[Goldstone1976]

PS I know myself enough that I'd have just told your salespeople -- sorry, salesAlphamen -- to do one.

You weren't that pissed at that point in the evening then?