LamieRobertson
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According to the Telegraph we've voted to ban the Burqa
- Thread starter alfredmizen
- Start date
Give it s go and let us know how you get on
Seriously, no I wouldn't. I DO understand that some people would be, but I don't see that as a reason for banning a style of dressing. People have also been scared of meeting punks, skinheads, Teddy Boys, bikers etc just because of the way they dress and because of the lurid stories they've heard of violence and mayhem involving 'those sort of people'.
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
- Thread starter
- #63
All the aforementioned managed to interact with society in relatively normal way as a whole , and most have since moved on to become run of the mill members of society , indistinguishable from other people in both the way they dress, lead their lives and go about their business involving other people , burqa wearing , and in many cases non English speaking, Muslim women, don't, and haven't.
That wasn't the question though. The question was would you be 'alarmed' by these people who dress differently and belong to a different sub-culture and people were alarmed by skinheads etc. It was also thought that punks etc weren't part of society - and many members of youth sub-cultures did indeed feel they were outside mainstream society, that it wasn't theirs. And as you say they've all (mostly!) gone on to become 'normal' without having the way they dress being outlawed.
As Simster has pointed out though it isn't a cut-and-dried issue. If you want to make the case that the burqa is a symbol of the Islamic oppression of women and as such has no place in our liberal, democratic society I'd have a strong amount of sympathy with that view. I still wouldn't want to see it banned as it IS just a mode of dress and not something ghastly like FGM - and part of being a tolerant society is accommodating those with whom we don't agree. But I'd see where you were coming from. If however you want to see it banned because "It's what them muslamics wear and they're all terrorists" then I'd tell you to stop being such an ignorant wuss!
Yoda
English & European
The Quran does not specifically mention the burqa or tell women to wear such extremely confining clothes. Instead, it instructs men and women to dress and behave modestly in society. The only people being forced to wear them are those under extremist Islamic oppression. In Syria, for example, before ISIS, women were allowed to wear what they chose. In Saudi Arabia, women wear a loose robe called abaya and a face veil called niqab, while in nations like Tunisia or Turkey; Muslim women tend to wear only a headscarf. In Iran, they take a step further and the “fashion police” mandate all women to wear loose clothing – preferably a black or white robe – when going out, women are also supposed to wear either a full face veil or scarf. One of the extremes of burqa is the Afghan burqa, which was enforced by the Taliban. This burqa covers the entire body in loose clothing with the face (including eyes) being covered with only a grille for the women to look through. It varies from Muslim Country to Muslim Country so is NOT religious.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
I watched the Chronicles of Nadiya, yesterday evening and last week. For those who don't know her, Nadiya won the Great British Bake Off, last series. She is a Bangladeshi Briton. Her family is Muslim. She chooses to wear a head covering, but some of her family in Bangladesh don't. She said it was entirely her own choice.
I know there are some cultures where women are forced to wear the burqa, but in time that will change. Change cannot be forced especially when it is such an ingrained custom.
Syrian women were forced to wear the burqa when ISIS overran their town, but when they were liberated by the rebels a couple of weeks ago, they were in the streets burning them.
I know there are some cultures where women are forced to wear the burqa, but in time that will change. Change cannot be forced especially when it is such an ingrained custom.
Syrian women were forced to wear the burqa when ISIS overran their town, but when they were liberated by the rebels a couple of weeks ago, they were in the streets burning them.
Ernest, you've posted from the wrong account.You can't do that. Posts on NSC would PLUMMET.
symyjym
Banned
I think Burkas and Niqabs are a political statement of non integration. A hijab/scarf even draped over the face isn't really a problem.
Black letter box veils and full get up on a school run isn't really appropriate and it isn't fair on their children who will be seen as different.
They can't be banned though, but maybe those who want to wear them should pay for a licence to do so, like a jizyah tax, with on the spot fines for those who haven't purchased one.
Black letter box veils and full get up on a school run isn't really appropriate and it isn't fair on their children who will be seen as different.
They can't be banned though, but maybe those who want to wear them should pay for a licence to do so, like a jizyah tax, with on the spot fines for those who haven't purchased one.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Up yours! I'm called Pasty for a reason and if I want to wear shorts I bloody well will
Oh I see..pasty
I assumed it was pasty
pastafarian
Well-known member
Dr Taj Hargey wrote this a couple of years ago.
Dr Taj Hargey is the Imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation and the Director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford
Why I, as a Muslim, am launching a campaign to ban the burka in Britain
The increasing fashion for young Muslim women in Britain to wear the burka (in contrast to their mothers, who do not) is one of most sinister developments of our times.
Supporters of this garment like to pretend that it is a welcome symbol of our society’s multicultural diversity and philosophical tolerance. But such warped thinking is woefully misguided. In reality, the burka is an archaic tribal piece of cloth that is eagerly used by fundamentalist zealots to promote a toxic brand of extremist non-Koranic theology.
Everyone in Britain, including Muslims, should oppose the insidious spread of this vile piece of clothing, which imprisons women, threatens social harmony, fuels distrust, has grave health implications and is a potent security risk.
Contrary to the claims of its advocates, it has nothing to do with Islam but is a cultural fad imported from Saudi Arabia and primitive parts of the Islamic world.
That is why this week, with the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, I am launching a nationwide campaign to impose a ban on face masks in public spaces in Britain.
Such a nationwide prohibition would deal with all types of covering, including balaclavas, but there would be no exemption for the burka/niqab on any spurious, politically correct grounds of religious conscience.
One of the key purposes of this initiative is to persuade at least 100,000 people to sign a formal petition calling for the ban, thereby obliging Parliament to debate the issue.
Despite growing concern from the British public, our pusillanimous politicians have refused to address the burgeoning prevalence of the burka in our midst, as they fear accusations of Islamophobia from the militant fundamentalists and their PC allies.
Well, it is time to put the needs of British society before the manufactured grievances of the hardliners, whose aim is to replace our liberal democracy with a totalitarian theocracy, the burka serving as a weapon in this far-reaching cultural war.
In rejecting the ideology of the zealots, mainstream Muslims should be at the forefront of the campaign for a ban, not least because the burka so badly undermines the credibility and reputation of our faith.
There have, of course, been previous petitions and calls to outlaw face masks in public, but all came from the political Right and gained little traction.
This campaign is different. It is the first one led by Muslims, speaking for the moderate majority whose voice has been unheeded up to now. We invite both Muslims and our other fellow citizens to work together to rid Britain of this alien cultural monstrosity.
A key part of the impetus for this move came from the decision of the European Court of Human Rights this month to uphold the ban instituted by the French Government in 2010 on all face coverings in public. Supported by lawyers from Birmingham, a 24-year-old French woman of Pakistani origin took her well-funded case to the ECHR, claiming that the ban was a violation of her — and note the sequence — religious, cultural and personal rights.
On every level, this questionable appeal relied on distortions and untruths. Thankfully her case was thrown out, but her arguments illustrate the chronic weakness of any suggestion that we must allow the burka to be worn in public.
First, there is no religious requirement on Muslims to don the burka; second, the burka is not a feature of Pakistani culture, where 90 per cent of women do not wear it; third, there is no unqualified human right to wear whatever we want in public. In every developed society, personal freedoms have to take account of wider social mores.
The French ban has proved to be legally sound as well as sensible. I have long believed that the same measure should be introduced here in the UK to prevent community separatism and social apartheid. And, like the ECHR, I see no basis for the pretence that there is any religious sanction for the burka.
The wearing of the face mask is a custom originating in ancient Persia and Byzantium, more than 1,000 years before the birth of Islam. It was upheld by male aristocrats because of social snobbery rather than religion, since they did not want their womenfolk — wives, daughters, sisters or mothers — to be seen by the peasantry.
Nor is there any evidence in the Koran to support the wearing of the burka. Indeed, the Holy Book stipulates that men ‘should lower their gaze’ when meeting women to avoid lecherous staring (verse 24, chapter 30). So logically, if women were fully covered up there would be no need for such an instruction.
Some Muslim clergy claim that the burka is religiously necessary. They assert this because the Prophet Muhammad’s wives allegedly hid their faces in public.
These puritanical clerics do not base their theological misrepresentations on the Koran but on the subsidiary and suspect hadith (a collection of books containing the reputed sayings of Muhammad, written 250 years after his death).
In any case, this is a wilful misreading of scripture. In fact, verse 32 of chapter 33 in the Koran explicitly states that ‘the Prophet’s wives are not like other women’. So there is no reason to emulate them.
Just as revealingly, it is forbidden for Muslim women going on pilgrimages to Mecca to cover their faces. So if such a pre-Islamic practice is banned in Islam’s holiest site, why on earth would it be required on the streets of Britain?
The truth is that there is no theological foundation for these separatist face masks, as most non-fundamentalists recognise. Only recently, Al-Azhar, the leading institution of Muslim theology in the Islamic world, declared that the burka has no spiritual authenticity.
Theology apart, there are many other compelling arguments against the burka. It badly undermines social cohesion by inhibiting effective interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims in the public realm. There can be no meaningful exchange with people if you cannot even see their faces.
Moreover, the burka is an affront to the concept of gender parity in the UK.
If I tried to wear a ski-mask on a bus or at a bank, I would quickly be told to remove the item or leave, or be arrested. Why should the same rules not apply to Muslim women?
The demand for equal rights has always been central to the feminist cause, and in this case feminists should be calling for men and women to be treated equally. Either everyone has the right to mask their face or no one has.
There are huge implications for security, after several cases of terrorists and criminals using the burka to evade detection — a particularly worrying development given the explicit, bloody threats of militant extremists. In our troubled world, there can be no absolute right to anonymity in public.
Another concern is the health risks, for full coverings mean a distinct lack of exposure to sunshine. One recent study of 203 burka-clad women in the United Arab Emirates revealed that all but four were deficient in Vitamin D
If that can happen in a land of blazing heat, how much worse will be the problems in often damp, dark Britain? Our society is already seeing rises in rickets and other bone-related diseases for the first time since World War II.
Supporters of the burka talk about freedom of choice — yet it is not women who are being given that freedom, but men who are imposing their will. That is not empowerment but imprisonment.
The burka is just another weapon in the jihadist arsenal of misogyny, like forced marriage, female genital mutilation and sexist discrimination. It should have no part in British society, where women are supposed to be treated as equal citizens. By tolerating it, we are allowing a form of gender apartheid to grow in our midst.
All of us, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, have a duty to challenge the religious hardliners who have cynically exploited British traditions of tolerance and individual liberty to pursue their own twisted sectarian agenda imported wholesale from the Arab Middle East.
A start could be made by forcing our politicians to debate the issue by gathering sufficient signatures for our historic anti-burka petition.
We cannot continue to accept the creeping Arabisation of Islam in the UK and consequent destruction of our cherished British freedoms. A stand must be made now.
Dr Taj Hargey is the Imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation and the Director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford
Why I, as a Muslim, am launching a campaign to ban the burka in Britain
The increasing fashion for young Muslim women in Britain to wear the burka (in contrast to their mothers, who do not) is one of most sinister developments of our times.
Supporters of this garment like to pretend that it is a welcome symbol of our society’s multicultural diversity and philosophical tolerance. But such warped thinking is woefully misguided. In reality, the burka is an archaic tribal piece of cloth that is eagerly used by fundamentalist zealots to promote a toxic brand of extremist non-Koranic theology.
Everyone in Britain, including Muslims, should oppose the insidious spread of this vile piece of clothing, which imprisons women, threatens social harmony, fuels distrust, has grave health implications and is a potent security risk.
Contrary to the claims of its advocates, it has nothing to do with Islam but is a cultural fad imported from Saudi Arabia and primitive parts of the Islamic world.
That is why this week, with the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, I am launching a nationwide campaign to impose a ban on face masks in public spaces in Britain.
Such a nationwide prohibition would deal with all types of covering, including balaclavas, but there would be no exemption for the burka/niqab on any spurious, politically correct grounds of religious conscience.
One of the key purposes of this initiative is to persuade at least 100,000 people to sign a formal petition calling for the ban, thereby obliging Parliament to debate the issue.
Despite growing concern from the British public, our pusillanimous politicians have refused to address the burgeoning prevalence of the burka in our midst, as they fear accusations of Islamophobia from the militant fundamentalists and their PC allies.
Well, it is time to put the needs of British society before the manufactured grievances of the hardliners, whose aim is to replace our liberal democracy with a totalitarian theocracy, the burka serving as a weapon in this far-reaching cultural war.
In rejecting the ideology of the zealots, mainstream Muslims should be at the forefront of the campaign for a ban, not least because the burka so badly undermines the credibility and reputation of our faith.
There have, of course, been previous petitions and calls to outlaw face masks in public, but all came from the political Right and gained little traction.
This campaign is different. It is the first one led by Muslims, speaking for the moderate majority whose voice has been unheeded up to now. We invite both Muslims and our other fellow citizens to work together to rid Britain of this alien cultural monstrosity.
A key part of the impetus for this move came from the decision of the European Court of Human Rights this month to uphold the ban instituted by the French Government in 2010 on all face coverings in public. Supported by lawyers from Birmingham, a 24-year-old French woman of Pakistani origin took her well-funded case to the ECHR, claiming that the ban was a violation of her — and note the sequence — religious, cultural and personal rights.
On every level, this questionable appeal relied on distortions and untruths. Thankfully her case was thrown out, but her arguments illustrate the chronic weakness of any suggestion that we must allow the burka to be worn in public.
First, there is no religious requirement on Muslims to don the burka; second, the burka is not a feature of Pakistani culture, where 90 per cent of women do not wear it; third, there is no unqualified human right to wear whatever we want in public. In every developed society, personal freedoms have to take account of wider social mores.
The French ban has proved to be legally sound as well as sensible. I have long believed that the same measure should be introduced here in the UK to prevent community separatism and social apartheid. And, like the ECHR, I see no basis for the pretence that there is any religious sanction for the burka.
The wearing of the face mask is a custom originating in ancient Persia and Byzantium, more than 1,000 years before the birth of Islam. It was upheld by male aristocrats because of social snobbery rather than religion, since they did not want their womenfolk — wives, daughters, sisters or mothers — to be seen by the peasantry.
Nor is there any evidence in the Koran to support the wearing of the burka. Indeed, the Holy Book stipulates that men ‘should lower their gaze’ when meeting women to avoid lecherous staring (verse 24, chapter 30). So logically, if women were fully covered up there would be no need for such an instruction.
Some Muslim clergy claim that the burka is religiously necessary. They assert this because the Prophet Muhammad’s wives allegedly hid their faces in public.
These puritanical clerics do not base their theological misrepresentations on the Koran but on the subsidiary and suspect hadith (a collection of books containing the reputed sayings of Muhammad, written 250 years after his death).
In any case, this is a wilful misreading of scripture. In fact, verse 32 of chapter 33 in the Koran explicitly states that ‘the Prophet’s wives are not like other women’. So there is no reason to emulate them.
Just as revealingly, it is forbidden for Muslim women going on pilgrimages to Mecca to cover their faces. So if such a pre-Islamic practice is banned in Islam’s holiest site, why on earth would it be required on the streets of Britain?
The truth is that there is no theological foundation for these separatist face masks, as most non-fundamentalists recognise. Only recently, Al-Azhar, the leading institution of Muslim theology in the Islamic world, declared that the burka has no spiritual authenticity.
Theology apart, there are many other compelling arguments against the burka. It badly undermines social cohesion by inhibiting effective interaction between Muslims and non-Muslims in the public realm. There can be no meaningful exchange with people if you cannot even see their faces.
Moreover, the burka is an affront to the concept of gender parity in the UK.
If I tried to wear a ski-mask on a bus or at a bank, I would quickly be told to remove the item or leave, or be arrested. Why should the same rules not apply to Muslim women?
The demand for equal rights has always been central to the feminist cause, and in this case feminists should be calling for men and women to be treated equally. Either everyone has the right to mask their face or no one has.
There are huge implications for security, after several cases of terrorists and criminals using the burka to evade detection — a particularly worrying development given the explicit, bloody threats of militant extremists. In our troubled world, there can be no absolute right to anonymity in public.
Another concern is the health risks, for full coverings mean a distinct lack of exposure to sunshine. One recent study of 203 burka-clad women in the United Arab Emirates revealed that all but four were deficient in Vitamin D
If that can happen in a land of blazing heat, how much worse will be the problems in often damp, dark Britain? Our society is already seeing rises in rickets and other bone-related diseases for the first time since World War II.
Supporters of the burka talk about freedom of choice — yet it is not women who are being given that freedom, but men who are imposing their will. That is not empowerment but imprisonment.
The burka is just another weapon in the jihadist arsenal of misogyny, like forced marriage, female genital mutilation and sexist discrimination. It should have no part in British society, where women are supposed to be treated as equal citizens. By tolerating it, we are allowing a form of gender apartheid to grow in our midst.
All of us, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, have a duty to challenge the religious hardliners who have cynically exploited British traditions of tolerance and individual liberty to pursue their own twisted sectarian agenda imported wholesale from the Arab Middle East.
A start could be made by forcing our politicians to debate the issue by gathering sufficient signatures for our historic anti-burka petition.
We cannot continue to accept the creeping Arabisation of Islam in the UK and consequent destruction of our cherished British freedoms. A stand must be made now.
severnside gull
Well-known member
Banning an item of clothing is ludicrous. However I do think the police should be allowed to insist that a person removes the veil on request for ID purposes and that the veil should be removed in a witness box.
Gully Forever
Well-known member
- May 9, 2011
- 1,704
How is this a free country, when a muslim woman goes to the hairdressers/barbers, And all men are not allowed to enter. (not allowed to see her face)
They are enforcing there religion on us free foke.
Look, the vote is in. Do we really need to discuss it any further. Britain has had it's say. The Burkha is banned. Can we just get on with ripping Burkhas off their heads now? Stop moaning, stop whinging, the Telegraph has polled and it's Burkhas off. No more threads, no more discussion. They need to go.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 17,354
I totally disagree that the wearing of crucifixes is an indication of fundamentalism. It might be an indication of faith.
But I am also sure that plenty of people wear a cross who have no idea of its significance. I have had conversations in the past with people which would back that up.
But in general, Live and Let Live. But I do think the pictures recently of armed police forcing women to strip are awful and pathetic. If I was sitting on a beach in Nice wearing a T-shirt and jeans, would they force me to do the same?
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121
Don't know if it's already been mentioned but the burqa has been banned before in certain situations in this country. Jack Straw would insist that if meeting women wearing a full veil that they would have to take it off before he would discuss anything with them and without exception they all did.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/06/politics.uk
I think there was a few other MPs who publicly followed his lead and quite possibly still do. I think it's only fair too. I work with quite a few women who wear headscarves and I can't see any problem with that but I don't think I could work or would want to work with someone who covered all their face. And for what it's worth I can't help but think they're a sign of oppression.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/06/politics.uk
I think there was a few other MPs who publicly followed his lead and quite possibly still do. I think it's only fair too. I work with quite a few women who wear headscarves and I can't see any problem with that but I don't think I could work or would want to work with someone who covered all their face. And for what it's worth I can't help but think they're a sign of oppression.
Brightonfan1983
Well-known member
To quote Bill Hicks, "Do you think that if Jesus ever came back, he'd ever want to see a crucifix again? Kinda like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on..."
alfredmizen
Banned
- Mar 11, 2015
- 6,342
- Thread starter
- #78
Which goes to show that in the majority of cases the burqa is one gigantic v sign to mainstream society and our way of life , you never used to see anywhere near the amount of women in burqas that you do now, its a deliberate statement to set themselves apart, syrian women in a predominantly muslim country are burning their burqas whereas here they are adopting it to emphasise their difference .
Lincoln Imp
Well-known member
- Feb 2, 2009
- 5,964
Why are we talking about the detail? The people have spoken. Democracy rules. No need for anyone to winge on about it. No need for MPs to be involved. Just ban the thing. If we can decide the future of our country with a snap poll we can sure as heck ban some morbid outer garment by the same method. Anyone disagreeing is just a moaner.
Buzzer
Languidly Clinical
- Oct 1, 2006
- 26,121