A Thread For The Nationality Debate (away from the tennis!)

[The Spanish]

It was a joke, Buzzer mentioned him in a previous post....hence the wink.

oops.

 

[LargeHadronZugzwang]

Born in Shoreham by Sea and proud of it. As to anyone saying I have misplaced shame due to the British Empire, my conscience pleads guilty. The lessons of history that are not learnt by national hubris are multitudinous; at Omdurman they were mown down in their thousands, the Syria /Iraq, Pakistan/India/Kashmir divisions have created utter mayhem. That said, we gave India trains and stopped the cult of Kali, and what is more gave the World sport. We also created famine and tikka masala.
What makes me sad are people who still think we are an Empire and have a superior culture. Nor are we an island off the coast of Florida. We are a small island in Europe. The more the establishment, Public schools and the Upper Class idiots who run this Country get to recognise and appreciate this fact, the more likely it is we will not be fighting appalling wasteful wars in the future.

 

[stripeyshark]

Don't be ridiculous. You can love something more than something else and recognise that it's equal but different. I'm just immensely proud of this country's achievements and its people. I've met many other people who feel the same about their country.



You're completely missing the point about your attempt at taking the moral high ground becoming null and void when you show such contempt for other people's views. You clearly regard yourself as separate from us children and you show obvious prejudice against others views because you respond with sarcasm and plain insults. Paradigm, my arse.




Sorry, but that's utter rubbish. The concept of nationhood has existed as long as man and the call for self-determination for as long. America was founded on the notion of self-determination. The Roman Empire collapsed because it was so busy trying to keep reluctant nations within its power. The Bible is littered with references to displaced people wanting to return 'home' to their nation or wars between invading forces and people who don't want a foreign culture imposed on them.



I don't have to justify my love of my country. My Catalan girlfriend feels exactly the same about her country and fair play to her. I love being English. Our achievements in every field of human endeavour is quite remarkable. Pick a science - any science and you'll find an Englishman who is a major figure in its development. Music - likewise, Exploration - likewise. Arts - likewise. Literature - likewise. Philosophy - likewise. We are truly awesome.

And as I've previously said, I'm widely travelled and I've lived abroad. Not that that need be a prerequisite for loving your own country.



There you go again. Very stereotypical, inaccurate and arrogant views on the rest of us football fans. And with heavy implication that you're really something special compared to the rest of us. Separation and prejudice, as you so succinctly put it.

Favourite post of the year.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As a follow up to my previous post; because of Britain's history I do think there is a more rigid idea of nationality in the UK. Across the channel in the past few generations countries have been invaded, borders redrawn, countries broken up and families displaced which has led to more fluid ideas and understanding of nationality. In that Palin New England programme one old lady had lived in the same house all her life, never moved, yet had 4 different nationalities. That Milan player has represented 3 different countries at the World Cup. Neither of these two actively choose this...it just happened to them and I doubt neither changed their character/culture as their nationality changed. This helps me think nationality, in parts , is nonsense. I could also obtain a German passport in 4.5 years if I wanted to....which is also nonsense.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That's why I've always liked 'British'. British to me is a nationality of acceptance, inclusion and diversity. For that I am proud, whether half indian, half this, half that, Britishness is defined by a rich cultural mix not confined to birth rights, and blood lines. I've only ever looked at myself being English when watching Rugby, Cricket or football, and as for cricket, I've loved every Welshman, Irishman, South African, or whoever else has played for us - something to be proud of in my book, come to our country, contribute, and you are included.

Funnily enough, I also love the Welsh, Scottish, and Cornish. Brilliant people's all of them. Fantastic countries to visit, proud to be their neighbours and part of a combined union.

Fair points.

 

[stripeyshark]

One thing this thread has done is show what a load of arbitrary nonsense nationality is. I identify with as many non-English things as I do English. I am English born but culturally partially elsewhere I guess.

Culturally up your own arse by the sounds of it.

 

[Buzzer]

Just to say that when I say 'awesome' I do mean that it fills me with awe whenever you consider what we have achieved and continue to do in lots of areas. That doesn't mean that I'm a nationalist or that we don't have big faults. We do, but it doesn't stop me from being immensely proud of England.

And I don't buy into the concept that just because we're a mongrel race that Englishness is a myth. Right back to the middle ages, the Norman aristocracy that took control of this country took only half a dozen generations or thereabouts to feel sufficiently English that they started hating the French too.

I do wonder why there is so much middle-class angst about this subject. Tony Parsons hit the nail on the head when stating that by and large the working and upper classes don't share the guilt. "The two classes united in bloodsports, love of the flag, bad parenting and even worse dentistry."

 

[Guy Crouchback]

And I don't buy into the concept that just because we're a mongrel race that Englishness is a myth.

And you are quite right not to.

Poles are another "mongrel race"; one thousand years of shifting borders, a couple of hundred
years as a regional superpower with the lands of today's Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia,
parts of Russia, Germany, Moldavia, Czech Republic, being a part of Poland, and countless wars
and invasions caused immense mixing of blood. When you add to that the fact that we had large
Scottish, Dutch, Jewish and Tatar settlements in Poland, you will realise that Poland is racially
a very mixed society, but it doesn't mean that there isn't such thing as Polishness.
You can have a Pole that looks like a Turk, or a Pole that looks like a Swede, but they are
both equally Polish. Our national identity is very strong, and Polish culture proved to be strong
and attractive enough to assimilate people from multitudinous countries and cultures.

We are not animals, we are people, and who we are is in our hearts and minds, not in
some imaginary "racial purity". As an outsider, who has never been to England but takes
a keen interest in your country's history and culture, I can say that Englishness is definitely
not a myth.

 

[stripeyshark]

but stating i love my nation more than others is childish - akin to my dad is better than your dad playground stuff.

calling 'childish' to a paradigm on a football forum creates no separation at all compared to nationalism.....they are impossible (and cheap) to try and compare.

of course nations have been around for centuries / millenia - but really confirmed, concreted, stamped, etc in the 20th century.

so, tell me why you LOVE being English? it's wierd as you have no comparables, unless you have lived in other countries for years at a time completely emmeresed in other cultures.


silly me replying tho, this is a football forum, and speaking against nationalism will be heavily opposed -as that's the nature of the beast......its like going on a ballet forum and talking up breakdancing.

Something being better or worse has no relation to whether I love it. How can loving your country be childish? You fool.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Culturally up your own arse by the sounds of it.

Enjoy university, come back when you've grown up and seen some of the world.