A Thread For The Nationality Debate (away from the tennis!)

[seagull_in_malaysia]

I'd like to see someone fill in English under "Nationality" on a landing card when traveling abroad. I have a feeling most countries wouldn't recognise it as a valid nationality...

 

[seagull_in_malaysia]

Can I also just say that options two and three are the same and options one and four are impossible.

How is option 1 impossible?

 

[Simster]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Nations are as much different because of climate, geography, genetics (in some parts of the world the people are lactose intolerant and so don't eat dairy products), language, the food available to eat, the daily risks they face from nature (earthquakes in Japan, Polar bears in Alaska).

It's futile and downright cruel to homogenise a planet when we have different needs and different resources available depending on where we are.

A sense of community spirit? I'll acknowledge that Britain isn't brilliant at this but for every multi-cultural utopia you claim to have experienced I'll name two monocultures with equally vibrant community spirit - because there's a real sense of belonging and kinship. Think about it the native Indian tribes in South America or the indigenous people of Borneo or the Aborigines. Are you telling me they don't have an amazing sense of community or friendship?

And in Southern Italy where entire families often live together, the village dine together, look after each other and have an extremely strong community bond.

Or maybe the Amish in America? Very insular but the strongest community spirit you will find anywhere. Each one of these that I've mentioned are monocultural. And us British are extremely multicultural in comparison. Are you sure your model is the right one for everybody?

You don't claim to be special? Well this post makes clear you're different from the majority of football fans who are, in your opinion, nationalist:



And therefore the majority of us are children and need to grow up. Yes, I think you've claimed to be something special.

Sometimes it is a pleasure watching Buzzer debate on these boards. When he puts his mind to it, he invariably absolutely RUINS people's arguments. If you're going to attempt to be patronizing, it's always best to ensure Buzzer is on your "team" - or you run the risk of being made to look very stupid, as hybrid_x does here.

 

[mikeyjh]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Nations are as much different because of climate, geography, genetics (in some parts of the world the people are lactose intolerant and so don't eat dairy products), language, the food available to eat, the daily risks they face from nature (earthquakes in Japan, Polar bears in Alaska).

It's futile and downright cruel to homogenise a planet when we have different needs and different resources available depending on where we are.

A sense of community spirit? I'll acknowledge that Britain isn't brilliant at this but for every multi-cultural utopia you claim to have experienced I'll name two monocultures with equally vibrant community spirit - because there's a real sense of belonging and kinship. Think about it the native Indian tribes in South America or the indigenous people of Borneo or the Aborigines. Are you telling me they don't have an amazing sense of community or friendship?

And in Southern Italy where entire families often live together, the village dine together, look after each other and have an extremely strong community bond.

Or maybe the Amish in America? Very insular but the strongest community spirit you will find anywhere. Each one of these that I've mentioned are monocultural. And us British are extremely multicultural in comparison. Are you sure your model is the right one for everybody?

You don't claim to be special? Well this post makes clear you're different from the majority of football fans who are, in your opinion, nationalist:



And therefore the majority of us are children and need to grow up. Yes, I think you've claimed to be something special.

You make some good points, and certainly people with different nationalities are, well, different...... But my problem is with the concept of nationality being the single most defining aspect of an individual, that the whole persona is defined by the accident that is your place of birth (which is the only thing that defines nationality in my book). I just think that's a dangerous assumption, and how we end up with stereotypes....

I would also argue that while many people confuse nationality and ethnicity - As I've said before, I was born here so I am English/British, whatever is, end of story. Ethnically, I have plenty of Irish and French in me which is fine, makes me a mongrel, like most people british people, but not relevant to my nationality.

 

[seagull_in_malaysia]

Well I am happy to be wrong. But I can't see how you can be British without being born in one of its constituent countries or have emigrated from another outside.

I see nationality as an equivalent to citizenship*. Regardless of where a British citizen is born (Croydon in my case ) they are a British national. So being born in any of the four member states of the UK means you are British by law. British nationality law doesn't state you are English if you're born in England, or Scottish if born in Scotland for example. You can't get a English Passport, so how can someone be an English national?

I'm sure others disagree with this though

*Actually there are 6 types of British nationals, citizens forming the bulk of them. Others are "British Protected Persons", "British Overseas Nationals" etc

 

[Dowling93]

I'm English, but a quarter Irish and an eighth Welsh. If I was part Scottish then I could generally say i'm British

 

[Canonman]

What nationality do you see yourself as?

See poll and discuss, NSCers!

I personally am English first, but love being British.

I hope this isn't the start of trying to ethnically cleanse NSC

 

[ATFC Seagull]

I think most people are half this and a quarter that etc. I'm a relatively new convert to the whole concept of nationalism but I call myself English first and British second because this is where I live and I want this country to prosper and do well. What I do find strange is the people who go through their family trees trying to pick a nationality. They don't want to call themselves British because the British had a nasty empire, so what else can they be? Maybe I should have done the same before picking my country. I've got a French granny, what about them? Naah, France had an empire too. Belgian? Jeez no, how boring is that? German? Blimey, probably worse than France and Britain in the historical bad guy stakes. Ahh! Grandfather born in Dublin! That'll do me! Top o' the morning to ya, fiddle-de-dee music, plucky little Oireland and The Boys of The Old Brigade. Sorted!

(Absolutely no offence meant to any genuine Irish people. The above was partly taken from a rant by Brian Behan when he was holding forth in a pub about dreadful Oirish theme pubs full of people with cut-glass English accents pretending to be Irish)

No offence taken but I feel I should point out that, certainly in my experience of being around the Ango-Irish (hate that phrase) 'scene', I think people may underestimate the maintained traditions and culture of the Irish diaspora, and that someone who from the outside may appear to have plucked it from the air when they could be second generation or whatever, but actually have been brought up to feel by culture, visits home, family and dare I even say religion to feel more Irish than British.

I was born in Brighton to an Irish father (who himself has lived a huge proportion of his life in England) but can honestly say I have never made a conscious decision to "be" Irish, I was just raised that way and for various reasons it is definitely my nationality, aside from where I was born.

I think there is a a very general keenness here to write off English-born Irish as "plastics" without really accounting for the handed down culture and identity that I think people are happy to apply to other nationalities living in this country.

Edit - although re-reading your post I have an English accent, so maybe I should take offence.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

One thing this thread has done is show what a load of arbitrary nonsense nationality is. I identify with as many non-English things as I do English. I am English born but culturally partially elsewhere I guess.

 

[Buzzer]

One thing this thread has done is show what a load of arbitrary nonsense nationality is. I identify with as many non-English things as I do English. I am English born but culturally partially elsewhere I guess.

Nonsense to you maybe but most of us here are born English/British, our culture is English/British, our heritage is English/British, our language is English and we live in England. Why can't you accept the fact that in light of all that, most of us seem happy to say that we are English/British? If not that then what? The country with the biggest social influence on us isn't even in Europe. It's America. Do you feel partly American because of that? I don't.

I don't mean to be rude but it smacks of wanting to tell everyone how you're so very international and sophisticated and how terribly parochial the rest of us poor souls seem to you.

 

[Bold Seagull]

British first. Proud of our history and formation of a unique and long standing union with our neighbours.

 

[Brovion]

No offence taken but I feel I should point out that, certainly in my experience of being around the Ango-Irish (hate that phrase) 'scene', I think people may underestimate the maintained traditions and culture of the Irish diaspora, and that someone who from the outside may appear to have plucked it from the air when they could be second generation or whatever, but actually have been brought up to feel by culture, visits home, family and dare I even say religion to feel more Irish than British.

I was born in Brighton to an Irish father (who himself has lived a huge proportion of his life in England) but can honestly say I have never made a conscious decision to "be" Irish, I was just raised that way and for various reasons it is definitely my nationality, aside from where I was born.

I think there is a a very general keenness here to write off English-born Irish as "plastics" without really accounting for the handed down culture and identity that I think people are happy to apply to other nationalities living in this country.

Edit - although re-reading your post I have an English accent, so maybe I should take offence.

That wasn't me saying it though!

I freely admit I don't really 'get' it. However my family come from all over the place and maybe it would help if we were slightly more monocultural (as Buzzer has correctly pointed out that builds stronger ties of kinship and shared identity). I'm also slightly jaundiced as I have other relatives with Irish passports and they pretty much went through the selection process that I described: despite not being brought up in 'Irish' households they just thought it WAY cooler to be Irish. They piss me off because they cheer when England lose at sport despite the fact they're as English as I am!

Despite the fact I describe myself as 'English and proud' there is still a part of me that thinks all nationalisms are a bit suspect being based as they are on myths, historical prejudices and often pure inherited hatred. Back in the 1970s (when I was very much a 'workers of the world unite' person) it both amused and exasperated me to hear fellow lefties jump through all sorts of ideological hoops to try and explain why Irish nationalism was 'good', but British nationalism was 'bad'. It didn't dawn on them that they're identical, just different sides of the same coin. It's a bit like telling someone who hates football that there's a difference between Brighton fans and Man U fans

 

[Brovion]

Nonsense to you maybe but most of us here are born English/British, our culture is English/British, our heritage is English/British, our language is English and we live in England. Why can't you accept the fact that in light of all that, most of us seem happy to say that we are English/British? If not that then what? The country with the biggest social influence on us isn't even in Europe. It's America. Do you feel partly American because of that? I don't.

I don't mean to be rude but it smacks of wanting to tell everyone how you're so very international and sophisticated and how terribly parochial the rest of us poor souls seem to you.

Very well put. Simster was right!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Nonsense to you maybe but most of us here are born English/British, our culture is English/British, our heritage is English/British, our language is English and we live in England. Why can't you accept the fact that in light of all that, most of us seem happy to say that we are English/British?

I dont have an issue with this. If you want to be English go for it, I accept it. But this thread has people saying they're 1/8th this, 1/4 that, raised this way, raised that way.....how do you place a single nationality in cases like this? Nationality, identity, culture, citizenship can be quite different things but also one and the same; to me this implies nonsense. If you have a connection with a particular nationality/culture which you wish to define yourself by then fine I have no issue. Personally, I do not like the idea that my place of birth and the inherent nationality which goes with it defines me. Besides, I never liked having stuff forced on me; I am born in Brighton and am English but this in no way fully identifies me and I'd be disappointed if it did. It's not me wanting to tell everyone how 'international and sophisticated' I am, it's me wanting to be defined by things I choose to connect with which gives a better picture of who and what I am about. Likewise, not wanting to be rude but you seem to be on the front foot here... have I offended you? I always find it interesting when people seem to go on the attack when an English national dares to suggest they're in tune with non-English culture.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I dont have an issue with this. If you want to be English go for it, I accept it. But this thread has people saying they're 1/8th this, 1/4 that, raised this way, raised that way.....how do place a single nationality in cases like this? Nationality, identity, culture, citizenship can be quite different things but also one and the same; to me this implies nonsense. If you have a connection with a particular nationality/culture which you wish to define yourself by then fine I have no issue. Personally, I do not like the idea that my place of birth and the inherent nationality which goes with it defines me. Besides, I never liked having stuff forced on me; I am born in Brighton and am English but this in no way fully identifies me and I'd be disappointed if it did. It's not me wanting to tell everyone how 'international and sophisticated' I am, it's me wanting to be defined by things I choose to connect with which gives a better picture of who and what I am about. Likewise, not wanting to be rude but you seem to be on the front foot here... have I offended you? I always find it interesting when people seem to go on the attack when an English national dares to suggest they're in tune with non-English culture.

That's why I've always liked 'British'. British to me is a nationality of acceptance, inclusion and diversity. For that I am proud, whether half indian, half this, half that, Britishness is defined by a rich cultural mix not confined to birth rights, and blood lines. I've only ever looked at myself being English when watching Rugby, Cricket or football, and as for cricket, I've loved every Welshman, Irishman, South African, or whoever else has played for us - something to be proud of in my book, come to our country, contribute, and you are included.

Funnily enough, I also love the Welsh, Scottish, and Cornish. Brilliant people's all of them. Fantastic countries to visit, proud to be their neighbours and part of a combined union.

 

[Buzzer]

I always find it interesting when people seem to go on the attack when an English national dares to suggest they're in tune with non-English culture.

Your first post in this thread was to declare yourself European first, British second, English third and absolutely no-one had a go at you for that, there's not been a single mention of it. It seems that we're all happy for you to feel that way. It's when you then went on to describe mine and other's sense of English nationhood as arbitrary nonsense did I question you. And it wasn't to have a go at what your own identity was but rather your attitude to my identity as English.

You feel European - I don't understand it but if it works for you then more power to your elbow. But in return, I'd rather my view of English blood, English heart (to misquote Morrissey) not be described as arbitrary or nonsensical. I had rather hoped that we'd got beyond the stage of an Englishman being called a nationalist/Little Englander (and all the connotations that go with it) for declaring that he's English and proud of it.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Even though I'm half Spanish I've never considered myself anything other than English and British. I acknowledge my Spanish heritage though I'm more inclined to state I'm half Glacian than Spanish.

I find it amusing when people go on about being English as if they were part of some master race set apart from the rest of humanity. I can trace back my fathers side of the family to the 1750's and by any definition they are English, however if you study my surname, it of Norman origin! Though this has been added two by the dutch, french again, Irish, jews and those from the commonwealth. The English are a mongrel race made up of Vikings, Angles and Saxons (German)and Norman (French). It is this varience that makes the Englishman so different and original!

Two of the greatest Englishman were Brunel and Churchill. The fact that Churchill's mother was American and Brunel father was French seems to allude many!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Your first post in this thread was to declare yourself European first, British second, English third and absolutely no-one had a go at you for that, there's not been a single mention of it. It seems that we're all happy for you to feel that way. It's when you then went on to describe mine and other's sense of English nationhood as arbitrary nonsense did I question you. And it wasn't to have a go at what your own identity was but rather your attitude to my identity as English.

You feel European - I don't understand it but if it works for you then more power to your elbow. But in return, I'd rather my view of English blood, English heart (to misquote Morrissey) not be described as arbitrary or nonsensical. I had rather hoped that we'd got beyond the stage of an Englishman being called a nationalist/Little Englander (and all the connotations that go with it) for declaring that he's English and proud of it.

I wrote that this thread "shows what a load of arbitrary nonsense nationality is." I have not specifically mentioned English nationhood nor have I "had a go" at your identity as an Englishman as you suggest. I was deliberately vague in that specific post. I do stand by the singular idea that a birthplace defines your nationality is nonsense though; it has to be. But you have made a choice to be an Englishman and this choice is clearly not arbitrary nor nonsense. You have embraced certain things and live by certain values and this is what makes you English. Your birthplace is only a small part of it. If you were to say that the only reason you were English was because you were born in England then I am sorry but I'd have to say that is rubbish; but you gave a list of reasons which is fair enough and I cannot argue with them. If someone was to ask my nationality for formal reasons I'd obviously say British but otherwise I feel more European...it's just the way it is for me at this moment in time. Eddie Izzard feels the same

 

[The Spanish]

I wrote that this thread "shows what a load of arbitrary nonsense nationality is." I have not specifically mentioned English nationhood nor have I "had a go" at your identity as an Englishman as you suggest. I was deliberately vague in that specific post. I do stand by the singular idea that a birthplace defines your nationality is nonsense though; it has to be. But you have made a choice to be an Englishman and this choice is clearly not arbitrary nor nonsense. You have embraced certain things and live by certain values and this is what makes you English. Your birthplace is only a small part of it. If you were to say that the only reason you were English was because you were born in England then I am sorry but I'd have to say that is rubbish; but you gave a list of reasons which is fair enough and I cannot argue with them. If someone was to ask my nationality for formal reasons I'd obviously say British but otherwise I feel more European...it's just the way it is for me at this moment in time. Eddie Izzard feels the same

Eddie Izzard is possibly the worst possible example to give in a debate like this. he seems as confused as f ck and/or a deliberate contrarian.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Eddie Izzard is possibly the worst possible example to give in a debate like this. he seems as confused as f ck and/or a deliberate contrarian.

It was a joke, Buzzer mentioned him in a previous post....hence the wink.