A Thread For The Nationality Debate (away from the tennis!)

[Acker79]

And. I'm British and English. English and British. I don't really bother with which is more important or which I feel more of. I'm brightonian (by upbringing), sussexian, English, British, European, a westerner, an earthling. All these things at the same time with equal weight and importance,

 

[Brovion]

I think most people are half this and a quarter that etc. I'm a relatively new convert to the whole concept of nationalism but I call myself English first and British second because this is where I live and I want this country to prosper and do well. What I do find strange is the people who go through their family trees trying to pick a nationality. They don't want to call themselves British because the British had a nasty empire, so what else can they be? Maybe I should have done the same before picking my country. I've got a French granny, what about them? Naah, France had an empire too. Belgian? Jeez no, how boring is that? German? Blimey, probably worse than France and Britain in the historical bad guy stakes. Ahh! Grandfather born in Dublin! That'll do me! Top o' the morning to ya, fiddle-de-dee music, plucky little Oireland and The Boys of The Old Brigade. Sorted!

(Absolutely no offence meant to any genuine Irish people. The above was partly taken from a rant by Brian Behan when he was holding forth in a pub about dreadful Oirish theme pubs full of people with cut-glass English accents pretending to be Irish)

 

[Simster]

English first and British second. I love being English - despite what all the self-loathers would have you believe we're f*cking awesome.

This.

 

[mikeyjh]

I think most people are half this and a quarter that etc. I'm a relatively new convert to the whole concept of nationalism but I call myself English first and British second because this is where I live and I want this country to prosper and do well. What I do find strange is the people who go through their family trees trying to pick a nationality. They don't want to call themselves British because the British had a nasty empire, so what else can they be? Maybe I should have done the same before picking my country. I've got a French granny, what about them? Naah, France had an empire too. Belgian? Jeez no, how boring is that? German? Blimey, probably worse than France and Britain in the historical bad guy stakes. Ahh! Grandfather born in Dublin! That'll do me! Top o' the morning to ya, fiddle-de-dee music, plucky little Oireland and The Boys of The Old Brigade. Sorted!

(Absolutely no offence meant to any genuine Irish people. The above was partly taken from a rant by Brian Behan when he was holding forth in a pub about dreadful Oirish theme pubs full of people with cut-glass English accents pretending to be Irish)

Exactly, we're all African if you want to go back far enough.

Your points about empire are interesting, I've stood outside our office in Delhi, on independence day with my colleagues singing the national anthem to the raising of the (Indian) flag. A quite peculiar feeling, but I didn't feel ashamed, I'm an individual and nationality is just one of many aspects that go toward making a character and in my opinion far less important that many other aspects.....

 

[Simster]

This! People always cling to their 1/8 Swedish or whatever. It's like they're afraid to be English and British.

Only when they're here. But when they go to Sweden, they talk loudly about how great it is to be British.

This is definitely the case with British Asians who bang on and on about how great Mumbai (or wherever) is because you can have 10 servants for 50p a day and the shopping is cheap, yet when they're visiting India, they are boring the locals rigid with tales of how great Britain is. I have a couple of Asian mates who have said as much.

 

[shingle]

Piece of advice. If you want to take the moral high ground here then you're going to have to do better than regurgitate trite cliches and then insult your intended audience by referring to them as children.

Ironic that you rail against separation and prejudice yet you've done precisely that in this thread with your sense of self-importance and obvious contempt for different views.

You could also do with a history lesson if you think nationalism is a 20th century phenomenon. Big fail all round really and it's not even 8 o'clock on a Monday.

Well said Buzzer

 

[Brovion]

Exactly, we're all African if you want to go back far enough.

Your points about empire are interesting, I've stood outside our office in Delhi, on independence day with my colleagues singing the national anthem to the raising of the (Indian) flag. A quite peculiar feeling, but I didn't feel ashamed, I'm an individual and nationality is just one of many aspects that go toward making a character and in my opinion far less important that many other aspects.....

They're not my points, it was just the prevailing view that the British Empire was totally and irredeemably 'bad'. To be honest I probably thought the same fifteen or so years ago, but now I think it's not quite such a black and white (pun intended) issue. Certainly when I go out for a takeaway I think the best thing Britain ever did was colonise the Indian sub-continent. (Yes, tongue is a little in cheek there!)

 

[shingle]

Right old mongrel me....Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cockney grandparents and great grandparents so...................British first and then English

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This.

Surely you're European

 

[Simster]

Surely you're European

I am indeed, yes.

So more accurately, I define myself as English, British and then European - in that order.

 

[strings]

I think the Royal wedding, the Diamond Jubilee and the Olympics have done a lot to enhance Brand Britain. I suspect that had the last two summers not happened, we would feel somewhat different.

Nevertheless, voted 'British, then English'.

 

[hybrid_x]

Piece of advice. If you want to take the moral high ground here then you're going to have to do better than regurgitate trite cliches and then insult your intended audience by referring to them as children.

Ironic that you rail against separation and prejudice yet you've done precisely that in this thread with your sense of self-importance and obvious contempt for different views.

You could also do with a history lesson if you think nationalism is a 20th century phenomenon. Big fail all round really and it's not even 8 o'clock on a Monday.

but stating i love my nation more than others is childish - akin to my dad is better than your dad playground stuff.

calling 'childish' to a paradigm on a football forum creates no separation at all compared to nationalism.....they are impossible (and cheap) to try and compare.

of course nations have been around for centuries / millenia - but really confirmed, concreted, stamped, etc in the 20th century.

so, tell me why you LOVE being English? it's wierd as you have no comparables, unless you have lived in other countries for years at a time completely emmeresed in other cultures.


silly me replying tho, this is a football forum, and speaking against nationalism will be heavily opposed -as that's the nature of the beast......its like going on a ballet forum and talking up breakdancing.

 

[W.C.]

As expected a few posts already with the old ashamed/embarrassed to be English/British bull shit.

National identity and ideas about it really does bring out some complete rubbish from some people. It reminds me a bit of religion in some ways.

As I've said on this thread, I'm half Spanish. According to some people on here, I say that because I'm 'embarrassed', to chose one example. Heard it many times before. Always amazes me that people don't have the imagination to get their head around the fact I love England, and plenty about it, my family and friends. And hey GUESS WHAT, I love Spain too, and my Spanish family. And WOW here's another thing, my Spanish Dad played quite an important role in my life. Who would have thunk it?

If a gun was held to my head and I had to chose one, then I'd go for English, but that's not going to happen so I will always tell people that I am half Spanish. That's who I am. I'm neither embarrassed or ashamed of anything.

 

[Buzzer]

Surely you're European

Not particularly - it's a great example of how meaningless these attempts at deriding national identity are.

I'm English because that is what I call home, it's where I get my cultural references from and I like best being around what I know and feel comfortable with. That's not to say I don't like travelling or experiencing different cultures, I've lived abroad and travel frequently. Last week I was in Malaysia. English is just what I regard myself to be. And I'm perfectly happy with that.

My girlfriend is Catalan so both of us are European but I'm not sure there's particularly a shared European culture or identity. Almost certainly we have with the Irish and wider perhaps our values, humour et al with the Scandinavians or Benelux countries but only up to a point.

This is where the likes of Hybrid_x and others fall down with their arguments about no borders/no divisions. You can't pretend that we are not different even from our European neighbours. What's important to us and our moral codes are a product of our geography, history, culture and language so you have to accept that there are different national identities and the right to self-determination.

Anyone who says their European first (Eddie Izzard) is trying a bit too hard.

 

[Buzzer]

but stating i love my nation more than others is childish - akin to my dad is better than your dad playground stuff.

Don't be ridiculous. You can love something more than something else and recognise that it's equal but different. I'm just immensely proud of this country's achievements and its people. I've met many other people who feel the same about their country.

calling 'childish' to a paradigm on a football forum creates no separation at all compared to nationalism.....they are impossible (and cheap) to try and compare.

You're completely missing the point about your attempt at taking the moral high ground becoming null and void when you show such contempt for other people's views. You clearly regard yourself as separate from us children and you show obvious prejudice against others views because you respond with sarcasm and plain insults. Paradigm, my arse.

of course nations have been around for centuries / millenia - but really confirmed, concreted, stamped, etc in the 20th century.

Sorry, but that's utter rubbish. The concept of nationhood has existed as long as man and the call for self-determination for as long. America was founded on the notion of self-determination. The Roman Empire collapsed because it was so busy trying to keep reluctant nations within its power. The Bible is littered with references to displaced people wanting to return 'home' to their nation or wars between invading forces and people who don't want a foreign culture imposed on them.

so, tell me why you LOVE being English? it's wierd as you have no comparables, unless you have lived in other countries for years at a time completely emmeresed in other cultures.

I don't have to justify my love of my country. My Catalan girlfriend feels exactly the same about her country and fair play to her. I love being English. Our achievements in every field of human endeavour is quite remarkable. Pick a science - any science and you'll find an Englishman who is a major figure in its development. Music - likewise, Exploration - likewise. Arts - likewise. Literature - likewise. Philosophy - likewise. We are truly awesome.

And as I've previously said, I'm widely travelled and I've lived abroad. Not that that need be a prerequisite for loving your own country.

silly me replying tho, this is a football forum, and speaking against nationalism will be heavily opposed -as that's the nature of the beast......its like going on a ballet forum and talking up breakdancing.

There you go again. Very stereotypical, inaccurate and arrogant views on the rest of us football fans. And with heavy implication that you're really something special compared to the rest of us. Separation and prejudice, as you so succinctly put it.

 

[Buzzer]

You are not particularly European!? Were you born straddling a continental divide!? In which case that is quite impressive.

You're being quite selective about quoting me. This puts that comment into context:

My girlfriend is Catalan so both of us are European but I'm not sure there's particularly a shared European culture or identity. Almost certainly we have with the Irish and wider perhaps our values, humour et al with the Scandinavians or Benelux countries but only up to a point.

This is where the likes of Hybrid_x and others fall down with their arguments about no borders/no divisions. You can't pretend that we are not different even from our European neighbours. What's important to us and our moral codes are a product of our geography, history, culture and language so you have to accept that there are different national identities and the right to self-determination.

It's like a 5th generation Noo Yoiker referring to themselves as Irish. Meaningless.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Not particularly - it's a great example of how meaningless these attempts at deriding national identity are.

I'm English because that is what I call home, it's where I get my cultural references from and I like best being around what I know and feel comfortable with. That's not to say I don't like travelling or experiencing different cultures, I've lived abroad and travel frequently. Last week I was in Malaysia. English is just what I regard myself to be. And I'm perfectly happy with that.

My girlfriend is Catalan so both of us are European but I'm not sure there's particularly a shared European culture or identity. Almost certainly we have with the Irish and wider perhaps our values, humour et al with the Scandinavians or Benelux countries but only up to a point.

This is where the likes of Hybrid_x and others fall down with their arguments about no borders/no divisions. You can't pretend that we are not different even from our European neighbours. What's important to us and our moral codes are a product of our geography, history, culture and language so you have to accept that there are different national identities and the right to self-determination.

Anyone who says their European first (Eddie Izzard) is trying a bit too hard.

We're in complete agreement. It was just a poke ( and possibly a cheap shot ) at Simster's constant defence of the EU !

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I define myself as English, British and then European - in that order.

Same, but reverse order.

 

[hybrid_x]

This is where the likes of Hybrid_x and others fall down with their arguments about no borders/no divisions. You can't pretend that we are not different even from our European neighbours. What's important to us and our moral codes are a product of our geography, history, culture and language so you have to accept that there are different national identities and the right to self-determination.

Yes, the Nations are different - due to the seperation they create. I know of some places on this planet that are super multi cultured - e.g. no real majority of persons from one particular nation - and these places have an amazing sense of community and friendship.....much more than dare i say, any town in England (where most don't even know their neighbors).

it seems you are lost in a life of lábels that were conditioned upon you when you were young my friend......"i am this, then this second, and i feel this is that, and that is better than this".....lol.

England the last 20 years or so has given the world tons more pain than it has anything decent.

not once did i state anything that percieves myself as "something special" (ala your claim to people born on one particular island) - so i find it strange you deem this of me just because i have different views.

 

[Buzzer]

Yes, the Nations are different - due to the seperation they create.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Nations are as much different because of climate, geography, genetics (in some parts of the world the people are lactose intolerant and so don't eat dairy products), language, the food available to eat, the daily risks they face from nature (earthquakes in Japan, Polar bears in Alaska).

It's futile and downright cruel to homogenise a planet when we have different needs and different resources available depending on where we are.

A sense of community spirit? I'll acknowledge that Britain isn't brilliant at this but for every multi-cultural utopia you claim to have experienced I'll name two monocultures with equally vibrant community spirit - because there's a real sense of belonging and kinship. Think about it the native Indian tribes in South America or the indigenous people of Borneo or the Aborigines. Are you telling me they don't have an amazing sense of community or friendship?

And in Southern Italy where entire families often live together, the village dine together, look after each other and have an extremely strong community bond.

Or maybe the Amish in America? Very insular but the strongest community spirit you will find anywhere. Each one of these that I've mentioned are monocultural. And us British are extremely multicultural in comparison. Are you sure your model is the right one for everybody?

You don't claim to be special? Well this post makes clear you're different from the majority of football fans who are, in your opinion, nationalist:

silly me replying tho, this is a football forum, and speaking against nationalism will be heavily opposed

And therefore the majority of us are children and need to grow up. Yes, I think you've claimed to be something special.