[Politics] A nation divided like never before- who do you blame

[pastafarian]

To be fair, that doesn't disprove his point. Plenty of people were fairly ambivalent to EU membership before the referendum, but if pressed were going to give some sort of answer. This referendum clearly happened because the Tory party were in power and had been hemorrhaging votes to UKIP.

We do keep telling you Nigel made it happen.
You say ambivalent others will say we were always there but we had no voice and whenever we brought it up we were shouted down as racists and xenophobes, so we ended up quietly lurking on the periphery, unlistened to and ignored, until the time came.

 

[Simster]

We do keep telling you Nigel made it happen.
You say ambivalent others will say we were always there but we had no voice and whenever we brought it up we were shouted down as racists and xenophobes, so we ended up quietly lurking on the periphery, unlistened to and ignored, until the time came.

Why do "you" keep telling me Nigel made it happen? I'm not denying it - I've just told you that's why it happened. I know there were plenty on the sidelines chuntering away at the EU, but I suspect there were far more people who actually didn't really give much of a toss either way. If you think about it, the people for whom it was a major issue would have voted UKIP. Their share of the vote was never particularly big outside of one or by-elections.

 

[pastafarian]

Why do "you" keep telling me Nigel made it happen? I'm not denying it - I've just told you that's why it happened. I know there were plenty on the sidelines chuntering away at the EU, but I suspect there were far more people who actually didn't really give much of a toss either way. If you think about it, the people for whom it was a major issue would have voted UKIP. Their share of the vote was never particularly big outside of one or by-elections.

Keep your hair on.....it was a "you" as in the collective you, not a personal you aimed at you. I just acknowledged that you acknowledged Nigel did it. There were plenty of people for who it was a major issue, the fact you as a remain person didnt see it perhaps would lead to the realisation maybe you (collective you) were not paying attention to people gripes.....the result would certainly indicate this. I have been hugely against the EU for years, i never voted UKIP in 2010 or 2015, i voted specifically on the tory manifesto pledge of 2015 to hold a referendum when an easy protest vote would have been to put a cross next to UKIP

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So you think an MP should go with their own, personal view over (potentially) the view of their own constituents and also against the result of a single subject vote that was held nationwide which gave a single answer, to leave the EU

Politicians are voted in by their local electorate but stand on several (usually party line) pledges, and the voters who elect their local MP may not agree with everything that MP and their party are proposing, should they win power but vote because, often they are the party and the local candidate that closely matches their view (or at least on some of the major issues)

This means you can have an MP who may also hold the opposite view to the people who elected them on a particular subject but still get peoples votes (because the other things they are standing on likely outweigh the things the voters disagree on)

The referendum wasn't like that, it was a single vote on a single subject with a simple in or out result. Out won. Yet we have some arguing that its not valid, that it's too vague, etc....

If they are right and the vote should be ignored when it's been held on a single issue, how does anything then ever happen in Parliament ever again because there are more grounds for arguing against the policies and the results of MP elections - but this doesn't happen because people accept the outcome of a democratic vote and are prepared to compromise on the outcome and accept that some things they are opposed to may be implemented as a result of that vote.

Leave / remain are polar opposite views with strong feelings on both sides which is why, in this case we do not have people willing to either accept the outcome of the referendum, (demanding another try to get the result they wanted) or they are unwilling to compromise (voting against a deal whilst trying to block a no deal Brexit)

Sorry, I haven't got time to answer this in detail, but I don't disagree with anything you are saying.

The Parliamentary Democracy means we get a choice every 5 years, or whatever.

In Between, those MPs should be left to do what they think is right.

And your comment: The referendum wasn't like that, it was a single vote on a single subject with a simple in or out result. Out won. Yet we have some arguing that its not valid, that it's too vague, etc....
is precisely why I have never approved of the idea of a referendum, for whatever reason.

The arguments about the validity of the referendum are a different matter, and I have strong feelings about that too, but they would be rendered irrelevant if the referendum hadn't happened in the first place.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

The constituency outcome was not relevant in the referendum, it was a national single vote, divisions by city, county, constituency, region and country are of our own making, they are not part of the legislated national vote.


Yes, if that vote ultimately leads to leaving, it was a national vote to Leave, not a national vote to remain. Parliament and MPs delegated the decision to the nation



Yes, following through on a democratic vote to Leave is what is best for the country, trying to scupper the vote and remain IN will be catastrophic for parliamentary accountability and the relationship between the people and parliament. Remaining IN, against the vote,will be a disaster for the country.
By all means MPs can put their case forward for “best for the country” whilst Leaving, but not I think its best for the country we just ignore all this and stay IN.



Good to see you don’t support another vote, the country is awash with hypocrites who hate the use of referendums but now want a second referendum vote because they think they might win.



The same Parliamentary democracy system that overwhelmingly took the democratic decision to delegate to the democracy of the people, via a referendum, the decision on whether we should remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union.
An outcome that whilst not legally binding was still agreed by our elected representatives, (prior to the vote), that would be adhered to by virtue of legislating to make us the deciders, and promised by the executive that no matter what the result it would be honoured.
It’s a slippery slope to chaos if parliamentary democracy democratically delegates a decision to the democracy of the people only to then pull up the blinds and hide behind their own parapet if that delegated decision turns out to be against what they wanted or expected.
Do not forget parliamentary democracy only exists because we put them there.
(Lords excluded)

I am sure you will be aware that I am the polar opposite to you in terms of attitudes to Europe, but this below is precisely what, in my view, should not have happened. That was Cameron's fault.
The same Parliamentary democracy system that overwhelmingly took the democratic decision to delegate to the democracy of the people, via a referendum, the decision on whether we should remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union.
An outcome that whilst not legally binding was still agreed by our elected representatives, (prior to the vote), that would be adhered to by virtue of legislating to make us the deciders, and promised by the executive that no matter what the result it would be honoured.


I find the whole question of whether there should be another vore extremely difficult. Whatever happens over the next few days/weeks/months, an enormous number of people are going to be very unhappy, and it is the depth of the divisions which cause me the greatest amount of grief. There was a headline on the front page of the Daily Express today about sorting out Brexit and UNITING THE COUNTRY. The second part of that is going to be a hell of a job for whoever is unlucky enough to get lumbered with it.

 

[attila]

The Tories.
From Cameron's initial ridiculous decision to hold a referendum to Fox's latest pronouncements, the Tories have never thought about anything else but their own future as a political party: limiting division, safeguarding future survival. Every move, every tactic, has been created with that in mind. The notion that some misguided people have that in some way they are 'patriotic' is completely ludicrous. They care only for themselves. It’s especially sad when people who have very little are persuaded that because they wrap themselves in the Union Jack and go on about ‘England’ they are more trustworthy that a Labour Party who will change their lives for the better.

 

[Doc Lynam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IL2XwSkFJQ

 

[Albion my Albion]

Abraham Lincoln.

Who is our John Wilkes Booth?

 

[Nobby]

Yeah, none of the voters outside of the tory party gave a flying f#ck about being in or out of the EU.

View attachment 106495

Yeah maybe a few hundred gave a flying f*ck but most people were just trying to earn a crust as usual but the Tories got scared. Entitled twats and the blue rinse brigade.
And look at them now - still trying to keep their party together, with no thought of the sh*t the country is about to blunder into.
How anybody doesn’t blame them for this crisis is beyond me.

 

[Nobby]

Keep your hair on.....it was a "you" as in the collective you, not a personal you aimed at you. I just acknowledged that you acknowledged Nigel did it. There were plenty of people for who it was a major issue, the fact you as a remain person didnt see it perhaps would lead to the realisation maybe you (collective you) were not paying attention to people gripes.....the result would certainly indicate this. I have been hugely against the EU for years, i never voted UKIP in 2010 or 2015, i voted specifically on the tory manifesto pledge of 2015 to hold a referendum when an easy protest vote would have been to put a cross next to UKIP

Correct, the current mess is down to the Tories

 

[HH Brighton]

Jesus Christ, 18% of people blame Labour, no wonder this country is such a ****ing mess. Surely time for IQ testing before allowing people to vote.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Jesus Christ, 18% of people blame Labour, no wonder this country is such a ****ing mess. Surely time for IQ testing before allowing people to vote.

This. Some people are so thick they don't understand the difference between hating labour and blaming them. I hate pickled eggs, but I don't blame them for my indigestion.

Just heard on the radio that the brexit tit who egged Corbyn has just be gaoled for 28 days. Lucky he doesn't have a job to lose!

 

[One Love]

This. Some people are so thick they don't understand the difference between hating labour and blaming them. I hate pickled eggs, but I don't blame them for my indigestion.

Just heard on the radio that the brexit tit who egged Corbyn has just be gaoled for 28 days. Lucky he doesn't have a job to lose!

I like it

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Imagine if someone offered you and your partner the opportunity ro read each others' thoughts.

'You love each other - it would be amazing to actually feel that love by reading each others' thoughts'.

You know where I'm going here. No sooner does she realise that her bum does look big (in everything), and that you find that she thinks your brother is quite fit, it's game over.

Cameron opened up this box of delights. Of course people were anguished and disappointed with the outcome, or tantalized with their wildest dreams coming true. And the boots will be on the other feet if we don't leave.

Cameron. Cameron, Cameron . . . . Cameron.

Telepathy and an in-out referendum are unnatural, against the laws of (human) nature, and can only lead to unrest.

 

[One Love]

Good to see you don’t support another vote, the country is awash with hypocrites who hate the use of referendums but now want a second referendum vote because they think they might win.

I support another vote purely because now the electorate are far more informed and a re-vote would now accurately reflect the people of this country.

The first referendum was taken with a large amount of people not knowing the facts or the consequences.

Surely leave or remain, a vote now would be most democratic and better for everyone.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The Tories.
From Cameron's initial ridiculous decision to hold a referendum to Fox's latest pronouncements, the Tories have never thought about anything else but their own future as a political party: limiting division, safeguarding future survival. Every move, every tactic, has been created with that in mind. The notion that some misguided people have that in some way they are 'patriotic' is completely ludicrous. They care only for themselves. It’s especially sad when people who have very little are persuaded that because they wrap themselves in the Union Jack and go on about ‘England’ they are more trustworthy that a Labour Party who will change their lives for the better.

The Labour party supported the decision to hold a referendum. Corbyn's positioning ever since the referendum vote has been about party advantage over national interest .. so similar to the Tories. The man who wouldn't stay in a room with Chukka Ummuna but happy to asscciate with Sinn Fein/IRA and the rabid anti semites of Hamas ...

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I am sure you will be aware that I am the polar opposite to you in terms of attitudes to Europe, but this below is precisely what, in my view, should not have happened. That was Cameron's fault.
The same Parliamentary democracy system that overwhelmingly took the democratic decision to delegate to the democracy of the people, via a referendum, the decision on whether we should remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union.
An outcome that whilst not legally binding was still agreed by our elected representatives, (prior to the vote), that would be adhered to by virtue of legislating to make us the deciders, and promised by the executive that no matter what the result it would be honoured.


I find the whole question of whether there should be another vore extremely difficult. Whatever happens over the next few days/weeks/months, an enormous number of people are going to be very unhappy, and it is the depth of the divisions which cause me the greatest amount of grief. There was a headline on the front page of the Daily Express today about sorting out Brexit and UNITING THE COUNTRY. The second part of that is going to be a hell of a job for whoever is unlucky enough to get lumbered with it.

So basically your argument boils down to...

The people are clueless and not to be trusted, only MP's should be allowed to decide anything, yet they are elected by the people who (you deem) are incapable of making important decisions (like voting)

 

[Guy Fawkes]

I support another vote purely because now the electorate are far more informed and a re-vote would now accurately reflect the people of this country.

The first referendum was taken with a large amount of people not knowing the facts or the consequences.

Surely leave or remain, a vote now would be most democratic and better for everyone.

As we haven't actually left, how do we know what it would be like once we are out and make an informed decision?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

So basically your argument boils down to...

The people are clueless and not to be trusted, only MP's should be allowed to decide anything, yet they are elected by the people who (you deem) are incapable of making important decisions (like voting)

No. I am saying that if your system of government is a parliamentary democracy, that's how it should work.

And with a parliamentary democracy, you shouldn't have referendums.


It doesn't mean the people are clueless. It means that the MPs are the professionals whom we trust to have the informed debate about the matter, whatever it is, do the research and come to a sensible decision.

With what is going on around Brexit at the moment, the main problem in my view is what the Government has been doing, or not doing, since article 50 was invoked. The Daily Express headline today called for MPs to get behind Brexit and unite the country. They should have been making the effort to unite the country TWO YEARS AGO to come to some sort of common ground over what was to happen. We haven't got any politicians in any party capable of doing that, least of all the current occupant of no. 10, who is frankly pathetic.

 

[One Love]

As we haven't actually left, how do we know what it would be like once we are out and make an informed decision?

Well we make the decision based on what we know at the time. Everyone surely admits we know much more now than when the referendum happened.

We certainly know more about our government and parliament now.