[Albion] A myriad of issues: Structure? Manager? Players? Inexperience? A 52-year supporter's view

[Weststander]

[MENTION=267]TSB[/MENTION] I thought you were also negative about our prospects, transfer business, results in the two Hughton PL seasons?

Or have I got that wrong?

 

[BrianWade4]

Hello. Been a while. Hope all are well.

Here to deliver a message:

Cards on the table – I thought it was a huge mistake when Chris Hughton was sacked and nothing I have seen in the last 18 months has persuaded me otherwise. Had he been replaced by, say, Rafa Benitez, I would have got that – an upgrade. But to replace our best-ever manager (Alan Mullery might argue) with a bloke from Sweden – had our experience with players from second-rate European leagues taught us nothing? – with one good-in-the-circumstances but not spectacular season in the Championship, well, it looked risky, to say the least. I wanted Graham Potter to do well but there has been a series of failings, not all of them necessarily down to him – it’s hard to know who is pulling the strings these days. I would say the charge sheet looks like this:

Management structure
This may be generational but it used to be common, when an inexperienced manager was appointed, to appoint an experienced assistant. Lennie Lawrence performed this role for several clubs, Arthur Cox was Keegan’s assistant at Newcastle, our very own Brian Horton was an assistant many times, notably to Phil Brown when Hull were briefly successful in the Premier League. It makes sense, doesn’t it? Our management team, including the Blessed Bruno, are all inexperienced (excluding the specialist, Ben Roberts). I share the fear expressed elsewhere that the coaches are little more than bag and cone carriers, unlikely to question anything the Head Coach does. Do you remember that Sami Hyypia’s assistant was intended to be the experienced Sammy Lee. Would Hyypia have been successful had Lee not changed his mind? No, you’re probably right but his chances would have improved. We saw the value of experience in 2014, why not in 2019? In 1982 we sacked Mike Bailey, who had taken us to our highest-ever league position, because his style of play was boring (ring any bells?). He was replaced by a clown, leading to an unnecessary relegation and, broadly, nearly 20 years of decline before Micky took the club by the scruff of the neck. I’m not saying Potter is a clown – far from it, on any level – but history has a habit of repeating itself, even if only at a reduced level.

Composition of the squad
The squad that took us up and kept us up for two seasons was full of experienced (that word again) characters – Stocko, Bruno, Shane, Liam, Siddy, Beram, Sam, Glenn, Anthony. You imagine that in that dressing room when some of those spoke, the others listened. We as fans felt, rightly or wrongly, that they loved playing for the Albion. Now – who listens when Leandro Trossard speaks, or Solly, or even Lewis? Does Trossard look like he loves playing for the Albion? Not to me he doesn’t. I suspect the only one who commands true respect is Adam Lallana and one is not enough. All the players with character have gone – several intentionally shipped out: Anthony, Shane, Florin, Glenn – apparently, in three of those cases, because they were deemed too difficult to manage. (As an aside, Chris Hughton seemed to manage them pretty well). Either they don’t fit into Potter’s management theories or, probably more likely, Ashworth has decided to create the same bland set-up as he did with England. Who knows? But in my opinion, lack of character (and, of course, experience) is to the detriment of the squad.

Coaching
We are told regularly that Graham Potter’s main job is to improve the players he has. How is he doing on that front? How many players have noticeably improved since he took over? Alzate maybe, but most of us had never seen him before, Bissouma possibly, Solly has been OK so far this season but it’s early days to judge. Apart from them, there’s…? Lamptey, you say, but he seems to have arrived fully-formed. I honestly can’t think of anyone who is performing consistently better now than he was in August 2019. I would argue that several have declined in form since first playing for Potter – Maupay, Connolly, Propper, Gross. Several more are, at best, no better than at the start of last season –Trossard, Webster, Jahanbakhsh. Others have either reached their level of reasonable competence (Burn) or were clearly not ready and still aren’t (Connolly again, Mac Allister). So is the Head Coach doing his main job well? Let’s compare our squad to, say, Southampton’s. I would say that Southampton’s squad is better than ours but not so much better that they should be sitting near the top of the league whilst we flounder amongst the also-rans. How come? Could it be that they have a more experienced (again) manager who is a better coach and who gets more out of his players than our man does? You decide.

Team selection
Well, you say, he must be doing something right because we finished last season with a record
Premier League points tally. Sure, if you include the meaningless last day win, we did – I think the 40 points, all gained in anger in front of spectators, in 2017/18 were more valuable. We stayed up last season, essentially, because of lockdown and largely the win against Arsenal in the weirdness of the first empty stadium game. Would we have stayed up had lockdown not happened? With the run we were on it would have been very tight but credit to Potter – we got our act together better than many in the three month break (maybe we need a similar reset now). But, really, do you think his team selection is a strength? It’s not about picking the best 11 players (clearly), it’s about the team. But what team’s that, then? There are changes of personnel, formation, positions within the game every week. Are our players good enough to handle this? The West Brom 2nd half when goodness knows how many were playing out of position suggests not. Who are our best players currently? Lamptey, Lallana and Bissouma get my vote. So Lamptey ends up right midfield on occasions, Lallana is sometimes part of a midfield two, sometimes wide, sometimes a 10, Bissouma is used as a defensive midfield player quite often. They are good players, they can just about cope, though they often aren’t being utilised in a way that makes the most of their talents. What about the others? No chance, completely out of their depth (Trossard leading the attack – you are joking). My abiding memory of the Potter era is the 2 nd half of the debacle at Bournemouth and Dale Stephens floundering around for 20 minutes at right back before being restored to some sort of midfield position. An interesting experiment in an end of season League 1 game, a tiny bit bizarre in a Premier League six pointer at 2 nil down. And don’t get me started on the goalkeepers – are the two places decided by a game of musical chairs? How does that help anyone’s confidence, including a defence lacking the captain and lynchpin?

Others have commented on tactical failings. I don’t feel qualified to comment but the set piece failings at both ends are glaring – largely, it seems to me, because almost everyone over six feet tall has been weeded out in a strange heightist purge, leading, apparently, to the hugely successful zonal marking defensive system. It’s probably on p116 of the FA Coaching Manual, just before the chapter called Style Over Substance.
It gives me no pleasure to criticise the club or the management. I have supported the Albion for 52 years and I always will. I want Graham Potter to succeed because that will make me happy. I don’t want him to be sacked. I hope he proves me wrong on all counts. When club, fans and players are all moving in the same direction, there’s no better feeling. 2016/17 was one of the happiest times in my life but we’re a long way from that currently (and not just because of lockdown).

I hope it works out well. But the signs aren’t good. Just saying.

This is too long.
Please could you summarise? Thank you

 

[stingray]

I enjoyed reading this and respect your opinion. Multiple issues to deal with at club right now, and you've articulated many. Personally I wouldn't want CH back but the football in his promotion and near-promotion years was superb, and should not be forgotten.

 

[ChickenBaltiPie]

I don’t feel qualified to comment

I couldn’t agree more, so why on earth did you post all that utter rubbish! You’re living in the past pal, and you’re completely clueless. Do us all a favour and in future, don’t!

 

[Goldstone1976]

This is too long.
Please could you summarise? Thank you

I’ll do it. I think it can be summarised as ‘Potter and Ashworth Out’.

 

[theboybilly]

I enjoyed reading this and respect your opinion. Multiple issues to deal with at club right now, and you've articulated many. Personally I wouldn't want CH back but the football in his promotion and near-promotion years was superb, and should not be forgotten.

Covid aside, what 'Multiple issues' are you talking about. Had the Albion had the rub of the green against United, Spurs, Palace and Burnley we could be sitting with 6 more points. Add the frustrating WBA game and there's eight points we would have. The performances have overwhelmingly deserved a better return. Had that happened we wouldn't have this thread now.

 

[lasvegan]

I enjoyed reading this and respect your opinion. Multiple issues to deal with at club right now, and you've articulated many. Personally I wouldn't want CH back but the football in his promotion and near-promotion years was superb, and should not be forgotten.

I agree, his Championship years were amazing but his Premier League years were some of the worst I have ever witnessed. I will never understand why he changed systems so dramatically.

 

[sydney]

OP obviously has passion and feeling for the club , i honestly think we are a decent striker away from something special , i'm not saying Maupay isn't decent but when the opposition do their homework and block us out of their penalty area we have no answer and one player cannot carry the team , here's hoping Llana , Trossard , Maupay, Zequiri , Wellbeck can , between then form some sort of attacking force that gives opposition a few more problems to deal with rather than the same predictable approach , we have a CB who was pushing for England honours yet we are taking short corners far too regularly , a 6 ft 7 in , mobile defender who should be a real aerial threat and we also need to make more use of our counter attacks ...........far too often the ball ends up being recycled , frequently all the way back to GK which is frustrating to watch and frankly boring.

keep the faith lads and lasses.

 

[Seasidesage]

Lets be honest none of us know which way things are going to go currently. One week we look fantastic next naive and weak. But, this is a work in progress Potter has inherited a team that wasn't his and in the space of 12 months transformed it from a dour functional aging side who would've got us relegated into a younger progressive football playing side who still might get us relegated but looks to many to also have the opportunity to move in the other direction.

Potter is not the messiah he's a young progressive coach making mistakes along the way who has dramatically lowered the age of the side a fact for which he doesn't get enough credit. This will not be a straight road there will be kinks bumps and problems along the way but the direction of travel is undoubtedly positive to this point and unless it dramatically changes I see no reason why we should or would want to change things. I think for a coach with less than 18 months in the job he's doing pretty well personally especially considering the dramatic changes to style and personnel we have gone through. In another 6 months I may have a different view that's the nature of football but right now I struggle to think of anyone we could get who would've done better...

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

Agree with every word but also that thinks started going wrong when women were aloud to watch the game if you ask me

Regards

DF

 

[Icy Gull]

I have no problem with the OP’s opinion. I just don’t agree with it.

For me it boils down to do I enjoy watching the Albion? It really is that simple in my world, and yes yes I do under GP.. I was at the point of walking away from live games (who’d have thunk we wouldn’t even have a choice a few months later anyway ) by the end of CH’s tenure.

I know results are everything for some fans but the beauty of NSC is the differing opinions. We influence absolutely nothing though so jump in, on or off NSC or the Albion as you see fit.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

This is too long.
Please could you summarise? Thank you

Win more

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

Interesting views. I agree with a lot of it but feel loyalty to Hughton means it's an opinion totally lacking any sort of balance. It is ridiculous, for example, to suggest that Potter hasn't improved Dan Burn. He's been twice the footballer anyone imagined him being under Hughton.

I don't think anyone can strongly argue Hughton definitely shouldn't have been sacked 18 months on, to be honest. At best, he could have been given a window to turn the slump around. But, as the OP alludes to, it's all about the Ashworth/FA project now. Whether it'll work in the long term remains to be seen. I'm not convinced, but there's certainly some positive signs in amongst all the rotational weirdness.

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[Perfidious Albion]

I have to say that I agree with a lot of what the O/P says, not all but a lot.
We got rid of CH because we just escaped relegation and wanted a new direction. We have a new direction tacticly but we are still hoping to avoid relegation. By now we should be an established Prem club not perennial strugglers.
I see that a lot have criticized this post but if we should lose next weekend those same people will have a different tune...

 

[Medwayseagull]

If Trump was an Albion supporter he would be TSB. Oblivious to the truth, full of his own self-importance and clueless.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

Agree with every word but also that thinks started going wrong when women were aloud to watch the game if you ask me

Regards

DF

Unbelievable.

It wasnt when women went to games! It was when they started to express opinions.

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[Guinness Boy]

There are one or two things in the OP that I agree quite strongly with and an awful lot of it that I don't. It's very long, and therefore hard to deconstruct point by point but the bits I do NOT agree with are:

1) Hughton. Had to go. Terrible football and results in his last few months.
2) Our points last season. Yes, they still count if the country is in lockdown. [MENTION=267]TSB[/MENTION] is basically using Covid as an excuse to say that all these issues were still there last season but to a lesser extent because of behind closed doors and that's rubbish. Playing in the summer, using 5 subs, two or three games a week, all of that is much, much harder and we adapted better than a lot of our rivals (e.g. Villa). If there's a concern it's that the momentum from that charge has carried on in terms of performance but not points.
3) Coaching of indivdual players. Sorry, but Lamptey has gone on record as saying our coaching has improved him. Webster is far better than when he arrived, March has been turned into an effective wing back. Burn, I'd say is not a Premier League footballer but is at least playing to the max of his ability. Alzate and Bissouma have improved leaps and bounds to the point where Stephens has been sold and Propper is a bench warmer. Moloumby too looked more comfortable than most of the RoI team on Thursday when he came on and can't get in the 18 most weeks. But, if we do have an issue it is up front. All of those players named are defenders or midfielders. In the opposition's box we are too over elaborate, taking too many touches in open play and totally wasting every free kick and corner we have. Potter seems to be a poor set piece coach and have no one on the staff who can coach the forwards.
4) Football in general. We are much better to watch than under Hughton, have more shots, better xG at both ends and can be competitive in big games. Really, all that is missing is covered above, set plays need to be improved and chances taken. That is doable although I am concerned about both weaknesses.

Where I started nodding along and agreeing with the OP were the points about experience in both squad and coaching and leadership. We are lacking in both and that looks deliberate. Hopefully the addition of Welbeck will be good on several fronts. He should, in theory, provide competition for Maupay but also advice and experience. Lallana has been there and done it and was, again by his own admission, brought in to provide experience, we'll need to wait and see if it is enough. And it is a bit rich of the OP to suggest that Bruno's experience counted as a player but doesn't as a coach. He hasn't suddenly forgotten everything just because he's nudging the big 40 and even yoga, sleep and brown rice can't keep him going at PL level. In fact, having Bruno on the staff is one of the things I'm happiest with.

But as the famous film line goes, let's not start sucking each others wotsits just yet. I wrote a piece last week form the premise that we are in trouble at the moment and we are. We are rooted in the bottom five, an obvious gap has already appeared there, and we have failed to win two "easy" games at home. I again agree with the OP that Trossard looks like he doesn't want to be here and Potter, for someone who has massive qualifications in emotional intelligence doesn't want to have difficult characters in his squad and threw the Spurs game just to prove a point.

The football is better, the individual coaching is better, Hughton had to go but equally results must improve. There seem to be three worse sides than us at the moment but yet another entire season of looking over our shoulders and finishing 16th isn't exactly what I had in mind when Potter was brought in and TB stated we had the aim of establishing ourselves in the top ten.

 

[Hugo Rune]

I don’t feel qualified to comment but the set piece failings at both ends are glaring – largely, it seems to me, because almost everyone over six feet tall has been weeded out in a strange heightist purge

Error one. Attributing set-piece success to player heights is simplistic at best, at worst it speaks of a person who only has a very basic understanding of football.

Error two. Half the squad is over 6ft. We’ve replaced tall players like for like (Veltman for Duffy, White for Stephens, Welbeck for Murray) and have just signed 6ft3” Polish midfield international Jakub Moder (after missing out on bean poles like Berge & Soucek) will who will tower over the vast majority of Premier League players. Here are our 13 6ft plus players.

Ryan
Steele
Walton
Sanchez
Veltman
White
Dunk
Burn
Webster
Bernardo
Pröpper
Welbeck
Zeqiri

Error three. If you don’t feel qualified to comment then don’t, that goes for your whole ridiculous post. Absolute rot.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I enjoyed reading this and respect your opinion. Multiple issues to deal with at club right now, and you've articulated many. Personally I wouldn't want CH back but the football in his promotion and near-promotion years was superb, and should not be forgotten.

I can’t be arsed to work through all the tripe in the OP, so I’ll just reply to your post instead.

Multiple issues at the club? Are there? Are there REALLY?

Or is there literally ONE issue - not taking a high enough % of the deluge of chances we are creating?

 

[Hugo Rune]

I can’t be arsed to work through all the tripe in the OP, so I’ll just reply to your post instead.

Multiple issues at the club? Are there? Are there REALLY?

Or is there literally ONE issue - not taking a high enough % of the deluge of chances we are creating?

Some people don’t like short corners either [emoji51].