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[Albion] A myriad of issues: Structure? Manager? Players? Inexperience? A 52-year supporter's view



rogersix

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2014
8,202
Unbelievable.

It wasnt when women went to games! It was when they started to express opinions.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Hello. Been a while. Hope all are well.

Here to deliver a message:

Cards on the table – I thought it was a huge mistake when Chris Hughton was sacked and nothing I have seen in the last 18 months has persuaded me otherwise. Had he been replaced by, say, Rafa Benitez, I would have got that – an upgrade. But to replace our best-ever manager (Alan Mullery might argue) with a bloke from Sweden – had our experience with players from second-rate European leagues taught us nothing? – with one good-in-the-circumstances but not spectacular season in the Championship, well, it looked risky, to say the least. I wanted Graham Potter to do well but there has been a series of failings, not all of them necessarily down to him – it’s hard to know who is pulling the strings these days. I would say the charge sheet looks like this:

Management structure
This may be generational but it used to be common, when an inexperienced manager was appointed, to appoint an experienced assistant. Lennie Lawrence performed this role for several clubs, Arthur Cox was Keegan’s assistant at Newcastle, our very own Brian Horton was an assistant many times, notably to Phil Brown when Hull were briefly successful in the Premier League. It makes sense, doesn’t it? Our management team, including the Blessed Bruno, are all inexperienced (excluding the specialist, Ben Roberts). I share the fear expressed elsewhere that the coaches are little more than bag and cone carriers, unlikely to question anything the Head Coach does. Do you remember that Sami Hyypia’s assistant was intended to be the experienced Sammy Lee. Would Hyypia have been successful had Lee not changed his mind? No, you’re probably right but his chances would have improved. We saw the value of experience in 2014, why not in 2019? In 1982 we sacked Mike Bailey, who had taken us to our highest-ever league position, because his style of play was boring (ring any bells?). He was replaced by a clown, leading to an unnecessary relegation and, broadly, nearly 20 years of decline before Micky took the club by the scruff of the neck. I’m not saying Potter is a clown – far from it, on any level – but history has a habit of repeating itself, even if only at a reduced level.

Composition of the squad
The squad that took us up and kept us up for two seasons was full of experienced (that word again) characters – Stocko, Bruno, Shane, Liam, Siddy, Beram, Sam, Glenn, Anthony. You imagine that in that dressing room when some of those spoke, the others listened. We as fans felt, rightly or wrongly, that they loved playing for the Albion. Now – who listens when Leandro Trossard speaks, or Solly, or even Lewis? Does Trossard look like he loves playing for the Albion? Not to me he doesn’t. I suspect the only one who commands true respect is Adam Lallana and one is not enough. All the players with character have gone – several intentionally shipped out: Anthony, Shane, Florin, Glenn – apparently, in three of those cases, because they were deemed too difficult to manage. (As an aside, Chris Hughton seemed to manage them pretty well). Either they don’t fit into Potter’s management theories or, probably more likely, Ashworth has decided to create the same bland set-up as he did with England. Who knows? But in my opinion, lack of character (and, of course, experience) is to the detriment of the squad.

Coaching
We are told regularly that Graham Potter’s main job is to improve the players he has. How is he doing on that front? How many players have noticeably improved since he took over? Alzate maybe, but most of us had never seen him before, Bissouma possibly, Solly has been OK so far this season but it’s early days to judge. Apart from them, there’s…? Lamptey, you say, but he seems to have arrived fully-formed. I honestly can’t think of anyone who is performing consistently better now than he was in August 2019. I would argue that several have declined in form since first playing for Potter – Maupay, Connolly, Propper, Gross. Several more are, at best, no better than at the start of last season –Trossard, Webster, Jahanbakhsh. Others have either reached their level of reasonable competence (Burn) or were clearly not ready and still aren’t (Connolly again, Mac Allister). So is the Head Coach doing his main job well? Let’s compare our squad to, say, Southampton’s. I would say that Southampton’s squad is better than ours but not so much better that they should be sitting near the top of the league whilst we flounder amongst the also-rans. How come? Could it be that they have a more experienced (again) manager who is a better coach and who gets more out of his players than our man does? You decide.

Team selection
Well, you say, he must be doing something right because we finished last season with a record
Premier League points tally. Sure, if you include the meaningless last day win, we did – I think the 40 points, all gained in anger in front of spectators, in 2017/18 were more valuable. We stayed up last season, essentially, because of lockdown and largely the win against Arsenal in the weirdness of the first empty stadium game. Would we have stayed up had lockdown not happened? With the run we were on it would have been very tight but credit to Potter – we got our act together better than many in the three month break (maybe we need a similar reset now). But, really, do you think his team selection is a strength? It’s not about picking the best 11 players (clearly), it’s about the team. But what team’s that, then? There are changes of personnel, formation, positions within the game every week. Are our players good enough to handle this? The West Brom 2nd half when goodness knows how many were playing out of position suggests not. Who are our best players currently? Lamptey, Lallana and Bissouma get my vote. So Lamptey ends up right midfield on occasions, Lallana is sometimes part of a midfield two, sometimes wide, sometimes a 10, Bissouma is used as a defensive midfield player quite often. They are good players, they can just about cope, though they often aren’t being utilised in a way that makes the most of their talents. What about the others? No chance, completely out of their depth (Trossard leading the attack – you are joking). My abiding memory of the Potter era is the 2 nd half of the debacle at Bournemouth and Dale Stephens floundering around for 20 minutes at right back before being restored to some sort of midfield position. An interesting experiment in an end of season League 1 game, a tiny bit bizarre in a Premier League six pointer at 2 nil down. And don’t get me started on the goalkeepers – are the two places decided by a game of musical chairs? How does that help anyone’s confidence, including a defence lacking the captain and lynchpin?

Others have commented on tactical failings. I don’t feel qualified to comment but the set piece failings at both ends are glaring – largely, it seems to me, because almost everyone over six feet tall has been weeded out in a strange heightist purge, leading, apparently, to the hugely successful zonal marking defensive system. It’s probably on p116 of the FA Coaching Manual, just before the chapter called Style Over Substance.
It gives me no pleasure to criticise the club or the management. I have supported the Albion for 52 years and I always will. I want Graham Potter to succeed because that will make me happy. I don’t want him to be sacked. I hope he proves me wrong on all counts. When club, fans and players are all moving in the same direction, there’s no better feeling. 2016/17 was one of the happiest times in my life but we’re a long way from that currently (and not just because of lockdown).

I hope it works out well. But the signs aren’t good. Just saying.

Chris on a bike, you're so tedious :ffsparr:
 




Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
37,355
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Re short corners, there was once a youth team coach at Barcelona who instructed his team to deliberately play corners out for a throw in for the opponent as he realized they created better goalscoring opportunities and eliminated a quick counter attack from a goalkeeping drop kick.

I'm not sure who it was, but wouldn't be surprised if it was a young Pep.

That's a story that's done the rounds about Bielsa but it is thought to be apocryphal.
 




Cowfold Seagull

Fan of the 17 bus
Apr 22, 2009
22,115
Cowfold
The most sensible post l have seen on here in such a long time, and l awholeheartedly agree on just about every point you make.

Welcome back TSB you have been missed, ,l've always enjoyed your posts ever since your Palmera Square days. Just don't go AWOL again!
 


Blue3

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2014
5,836
Lancing
I really don't know how the players, managment, coaching staff are coping with this season the players are living in a never ending bubble they are not supposed to live life outside of this bubble unlike the majority of the population there is no end to their lockdown, transported from ground to ground no fans no atmosphere, how they get motivated for games and then unwind let off steam ok they get paid well but even so I don't think that we can judge the management or players on this season, like the rest of us we have just got to get through it.
 




Reddleman

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
2,172
What a load of absolute drivel. Biased, agenda driven tripe. If you are a genuine supporter god help us all.
 




DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
6,819
Wiltshire
This is too long.
Please could you summarise? Thank you

It’s all a bit shit in Albion world and it ain’t getting any better anytime soon.

You’re welcome.
 




b.w.2.

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2004
5,189
Anyone who pines for Chris’ joyless tedious ineffective last 6 months in charge is a goon. Ignore the non-supporter moron...


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hart's shirt

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
11,080
Kitbag in Dubai
Cards on the table – I thought it was a huge mistake when Chris Hughton was sacked...

Results aside, Potters's free-flowing football has been a refreshing change from before when we attempted to win by boring the other team to death.

As for results, the last 17 league games of Hughton's reign brought 10 points out of a possible 51.

Played 17, Won 2, Drew 4, Lost 11, Goals For 11, Goals Against 31.

Sacking CH was right.
 
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kevo

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2008
9,807
Maybe a good point about experienced 'characters' in the squad? Perhaps there did seem to be more togtherness in Hughton's team. But it might come with time -- I imagine Lallana and Wellbeck will help in that regard.
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,189
Faversham
There is a well known saying opinions are like ar$eholes, everyone has one*







*Unless you have had a Proctectomy

:bowdown: Good job I read the whole of your posts before I fired off the clever riposte :lolol:
 




NooBHA

Well-known member
Jan 13, 2015
8,592
This has been done to death this CH and GP comparison. Time to leave it alone me thinks.

I don't ever like to knock [MENTION=267]TSB[/MENTION] because he was always extremely supportive to CH.

His points about Who is really has Power in and around the First Team don't think is without "Merritt"

That said the negativity about GP isn't valid. He has played the brave attacking football that people wanted. Time will tell if it yields enough points to stay up.

We are almost at the stage where the CH squad has almost been fully dismantled and by next year it will be almost 100% dismantled. After that Potter and Ashworth can be judged on their decisions because it will be their team and their players and their tactics to live or die by. Until then I don't see the need to keep bringing CH back into these arguments. He has moved on .

He left a Positive Legacy of Progress at Brighton. Time will tell in next 2 years as to whether GP has done the same.
 




TSB

Captain Hindsight
Jul 7, 2003
17,666
Lansdowne Place, Hove
Thanks for those who have posted a reply, whether positive or negative.
These weren't my thoughts (as I tried to make clear in the opening post) but were those of my father, who does not have an account.

ATB
TSB
 


Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
37,355
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
Thanks for those who have posted a reply, whether positive or negative.
These weren't my thoughts (as I tried to make clear in the opening post) but were those of my father, who does not have an account.

ATB
TSB

Nowhere near clear enough but I did think you were younger than someone who's clocked up a half century of watching us. I'd state the above explicitly next time and be prepared for your dad to take some pelters.
 


Super Steve Earle

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
8,931
North of Brighton
Hello. Been a while. Hope all are well.

Here to deliver a message:

Cards on the table – I thought it was a huge mistake when Chris Hughton was sacked and nothing I have seen in the last 18 months has persuaded me otherwise. Had he been replaced by, say, Rafa Benitez, I would have got that – an upgrade. But to replace our best-ever manager (Alan Mullery might argue) with a bloke from Sweden – had our experience with players from second-rate European leagues taught us nothing? – with one good-in-the-circumstances but not spectacular season in the Championship, well, it looked risky, to say the least. I wanted Graham Potter to do well but there has been a series of failings, not all of them necessarily down to him – it’s hard to know who is pulling the strings these days. I would say the charge sheet looks like this:

Management structure
This may be generational but it used to be common, when an inexperienced manager was appointed, to appoint an experienced assistant. Lennie Lawrence performed this role for several clubs, Arthur Cox was Keegan’s assistant at Newcastle, our very own Brian Horton was an assistant many times, notably to Phil Brown when Hull were briefly successful in the Premier League. It makes sense, doesn’t it? Our management team, including the Blessed Bruno, are all inexperienced (excluding the specialist, Ben Roberts). I share the fear expressed elsewhere that the coaches are little more than bag and cone carriers, unlikely to question anything the Head Coach does. Do you remember that Sami Hyypia’s assistant was intended to be the experienced Sammy Lee. Would Hyypia have been successful had Lee not changed his mind? No, you’re probably right but his chances would have improved. We saw the value of experience in 2014, why not in 2019? In 1982 we sacked Mike Bailey, who had taken us to our highest-ever league position, because his style of play was boring (ring any bells?). He was replaced by a clown, leading to an unnecessary relegation and, broadly, nearly 20 years of decline before Micky took the club by the scruff of the neck. I’m not saying Potter is a clown – far from it, on any level – but history has a habit of repeating itself, even if only at a reduced level.

Composition of the squad
The squad that took us up and kept us up for two seasons was full of experienced (that word again) characters – Stocko, Bruno, Shane, Liam, Siddy, Beram, Sam, Glenn, Anthony. You imagine that in that dressing room when some of those spoke, the others listened. We as fans felt, rightly or wrongly, that they loved playing for the Albion. Now – who listens when Leandro Trossard speaks, or Solly, or even Lewis? Does Trossard look like he loves playing for the Albion? Not to me he doesn’t. I suspect the only one who commands true respect is Adam Lallana and one is not enough. All the players with character have gone – several intentionally shipped out: Anthony, Shane, Florin, Glenn – apparently, in three of those cases, because they were deemed too difficult to manage. (As an aside, Chris Hughton seemed to manage them pretty well). Either they don’t fit into Potter’s management theories or, probably more likely, Ashworth has decided to create the same bland set-up as he did with England. Who knows? But in my opinion, lack of character (and, of course, experience) is to the detriment of the squad.

Coaching
We are told regularly that Graham Potter’s main job is to improve the players he has. How is he doing on that front? How many players have noticeably improved since he took over? Alzate maybe, but most of us had never seen him before, Bissouma possibly, Solly has been OK so far this season but it’s early days to judge. Apart from them, there’s…? Lamptey, you say, but he seems to have arrived fully-formed. I honestly can’t think of anyone who is performing consistently better now than he was in August 2019. I would argue that several have declined in form since first playing for Potter – Maupay, Connolly, Propper, Gross. Several more are, at best, no better than at the start of last season –Trossard, Webster, Jahanbakhsh. Others have either reached their level of reasonable competence (Burn) or were clearly not ready and still aren’t (Connolly again, Mac Allister). So is the Head Coach doing his main job well? Let’s compare our squad to, say, Southampton’s. I would say that Southampton’s squad is better than ours but not so much better that they should be sitting near the top of the league whilst we flounder amongst the also-rans. How come? Could it be that they have a more experienced (again) manager who is a better coach and who gets more out of his players than our man does? You decide.

Team selection
Well, you say, he must be doing something right because we finished last season with a record
Premier League points tally. Sure, if you include the meaningless last day win, we did – I think the 40 points, all gained in anger in front of spectators, in 2017/18 were more valuable. We stayed up last season, essentially, because of lockdown and largely the win against Arsenal in the weirdness of the first empty stadium game. Would we have stayed up had lockdown not happened? With the run we were on it would have been very tight but credit to Potter – we got our act together better than many in the three month break (maybe we need a similar reset now). But, really, do you think his team selection is a strength? It’s not about picking the best 11 players (clearly), it’s about the team. But what team’s that, then? There are changes of personnel, formation, positions within the game every week. Are our players good enough to handle this? The West Brom 2nd half when goodness knows how many were playing out of position suggests not. Who are our best players currently? Lamptey, Lallana and Bissouma get my vote. So Lamptey ends up right midfield on occasions, Lallana is sometimes part of a midfield two, sometimes wide, sometimes a 10, Bissouma is used as a defensive midfield player quite often. They are good players, they can just about cope, though they often aren’t being utilised in a way that makes the most of their talents. What about the others? No chance, completely out of their depth (Trossard leading the attack – you are joking). My abiding memory of the Potter era is the 2 nd half of the debacle at Bournemouth and Dale Stephens floundering around for 20 minutes at right back before being restored to some sort of midfield position. An interesting experiment in an end of season League 1 game, a tiny bit bizarre in a Premier League six pointer at 2 nil down. And don’t get me started on the goalkeepers – are the two places decided by a game of musical chairs? How does that help anyone’s confidence, including a defence lacking the captain and lynchpin?

Others have commented on tactical failings. I don’t feel qualified to comment but the set piece failings at both ends are glaring – largely, it seems to me, because almost everyone over six feet tall has been weeded out in a strange heightist purge, leading, apparently, to the hugely successful zonal marking defensive system. It’s probably on p116 of the FA Coaching Manual, just before the chapter called Style Over Substance.
It gives me no pleasure to criticise the club or the management. I have supported the Albion for 52 years and I always will. I want Graham Potter to succeed because that will make me happy. I don’t want him to be sacked. I hope he proves me wrong on all counts. When club, fans and players are all moving in the same direction, there’s no better feeling. 2016/17 was one of the happiest times in my life but we’re a long way from that currently (and not just because of lockdown).

I hope it works out well. But the signs aren’t good. Just saying.

You lost me at 'I thought it was a huge mistake to sack Hughton'. A lot of effort afterwards to prove your point was rather wasted I'm afraid.
 


DJ NOBO

Well-known member
Jul 18, 2004
6,819
Wiltshire
The club must despair with posts like the op’s.
Afterall this is arguably the most successful era in the club’s history.
Op - the owner got rid of Chris Hughton, because he’s ambitious and wants him and YOU to watch more attractive football.
Yes, it’s not proving easy but save posts like yours for when we’re one defeat away from losing our place in the football league.
For now, think bigger picture and enjoy it. Who knows how long it will last?
 
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The_Viper

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2010
4,345
Charlotte, NC
YOU'RE 52 OR OLDER?!

I was absolutely sure you were teens to very early 20s. Honestly, the fact that I associate you with the words obsessed, bully and creep at your age is an absolute shambles. Sort it out ffs.
 


Guinness Boy

Tofu eating wokerati
Helpful Moderator
NSC Patron
Jul 23, 2003
37,355
Up and Coming Sunny Portslade
YOU'RE 52 OR OLDER?!

I was absolutely sure you were teens to very early 20s. Honestly, the fact that I associate you with the words obsessed, bully and creep at your age is an absolute shambles. Sort it out ffs.

It was posted on behalf of his dad :facepalm:

You literally only had to look about 4 posts up.
 


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