8 car trains for Falmer?

[CheeseRolls]

This has to go down as one of the dullest threads on NSC ever.

and your point was ?

Like many other fans either working or living in London. Getting to or from evening games in good time may prove to be a real challenge. One by one all the big issues around the stadium project ,have been picked off and dealt with. This one by comparison is an inconvenience, but remains unresolved.

 

[Gwylan]

But, on a busy line like Lewes - Brighton, only by delaying other trains, effectively negating any benefit that the longer trains would bring.

Ed, is Lewes - Brighton a particularly busy line? I make out that at peak times there are only six trains an hour. I know that's not a quiet branch line, but it's not excessively busy - there are stations in London that will handle 10 to 12 trains an hour

I take your point about the lack of points making it impossible to change over without reversing out, but surely with between 8 to 12 minutes between trains, there's enough slack to handle a couple of minutes' delay now and then?

Am I missing something obvious?

 

[Notters]

Ed, is Lewes - Brighton a particularly busy line? I make out that at peak times there are only six trains an hour. I know that's not a quiet branch line, but it's not excessively busy - there are stations in London that will handle 10 to 12 trains an hour

I take your point about the lack of points making it impossible to change over without reversing out, but surely with between 8 to 12 minutes between trains, there's enough slack to handle a couple of minutes' delay now and then?

Am I missing something obvious?

a) it's as busy as it can be, it's not possible to run more frequent trains
b) the delays would affect the other routes through lewes, not just lewes-Brighton

 

[Brovion]

...
There were a few Albion supporters in the office who were all puzzling over how we might deal with this problem. Fortunately, the club produced a one page letter from Connex (as they then were), that said, simply, that the train operator thought they could cope. No details, of course, but this was considered to be good enough for ESCC not to pursue an objection on those grounds.

Strangely, the issue never got aired at the Public Inquiries either. But the issue basically remains unresolved. One aspect of the capacity problem is that trains on the Lewes - Brighton line are already fairly busy with passengers other than football supporters. They won't go away, just because a football match is happening.

Indeed. I do remember thinking about it at the time and working the figures out roughly on the back of a fag packet and realising that, for evening games especially, there was no way the trains could cope with the numbers that the club were hoping would use the railways. I obviously didn't raise it on here and just blithely assumed that 'something would be done'. (At the time I thought it would be possible to run Brighton/Falmer shuttles). The train situation, especially westbound, is for me the only worry about Falmer.


BTW I was in the Swan on Wednesday evening, the pub was empty except for two blokes talking at the bar. I couldn't help but overhear their conversation and your name was mentioned!

 

[Nappy thrower]

Indeed. I do remember thinking about it at the time and working the figures out roughly on the back of a fag packet and realising that, for evening games especially, there was no way the trains could cope with the numbers that the club were hoping would use the railways. I obviously didn't raise it on here and just blithely assumed that 'something would be done'. (At the time I thought it would be possible to run Brighton/Falmer shuttles). The train situation, especially westbound, is for me the only worry about Falmer.


BTW I was in the Swan on Wednesday evening, the pub was empty except for two blokes talking at the bar. I couldn't help but overhear their conversation and your name was mentioned!

But will it be any different from most clubs? Take West ham for instance.It took me an hour just to get into the tube station.I expect this happens at Spurs,Arsenal, the new Wembley etc.
There is going to be queing,that's life.I just hope people don't get frustrated by it and be put off.I can't see it though as it hasn't affected the top London clubs.

 

[Gwylan]

a) it's as busy as it can be, it's not possible to run more frequent trains
b) the delays would affect the other routes through lewes, not just lewes-Brighton

I'm not talking about more frequent trains though. Lord B said that Lewes couldn't cope with delays of a couple of minutes and I asked why, given that there is generally at least 8 minutes between trains. And the match trains wouldn't be operating at peak hours either.

As I understand it, the trains from London use a different line but there are people on here who know about this than I do.

As another thought, would playing on Sunday help with transport? There are far, far fewer trains on Sunday (only two an hour between Brighton and Lewes I believe) and the gap between them would allow plenty of options to run more trains. I don't want to play on Sundays but would that be possible if transport did prove to be a stumbling block?

 

[British Bulldog]

I'm not talking about more frequent trains though. Lord B said that Lewes couldn't cope with delays of a couple of minutes and I asked why, given that there is generally at least 8 minutes between trains. And the match trains wouldn't be operating at peak hours either.

Because every minute of delay results in a fine for one rail company or another so none of them will accept delay's to regular services for football traffic.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

and your point was ?

Like many other fans either working or living in London. Getting to or from evening games in good time may prove to be a real challenge. One by one all the big issues around the stadium project ,have been picked off and dealt with. This one by comparison is an inconvenience, but remains unresolved.

I know, I was only joking. I've just never seen a thread about trains on NSC before

 

[Gwylan]

Because every minute of delay results in a fine for one rail company or another so none of them will accept delay's to regular services for football traffic.

Yes I know. But you're missing the point, I want to know why, if there's an approx 10 minutes gap between trains, is it not acceptable to have a two-minute delay? It wouldn't hold any trains up.

And I don't see that the delay would be any greater than when FCC run a 4-carriage train at peak hours meaning that it takes twice as long to squeeze people on and off.

 

[Notters]

But will it be any different from most clubs? Take West ham for instance.It took me an hour just to get into the tube station.I expect this happens at Spurs,Arsenal, the new Wembley etc.
There is going to be queing,that's life.I just hope people don't get frustrated by it and be put off.I can't see it though as it hasn't affected the top London clubs.

Yes, completely different, I'm afraid you clearly don't understand. The capacity of a tube train is 1,500 and you can have one every couple of minutes. The capacity of the trains at Falmer is around 500, with one every 10 minutes but most of them are already fairly full. There is no way more than a very small proportion of fans are going to be able to get the train and I think this needs to be made very clear, right now.

Also, with those clubs you listed, a lot of people will be able to walk to the stadium and there are so many transport options with several tube and surface-line stations to chose from. As I worked out on a previous thread, if the number of people currently expecting to get the train were all to queue, it could take 16 hours for them all to get a train.

 

[British Bulldog]

Yes I know. But you're missing the point, I want to know why, if there's an approx 10 minutes gap between trains, is it not acceptable to have a two-minute delay? It wouldn't hold any trains up.

And I don't see that the delay would be any greater than when FCC run a 4-carriage train at peak hours meaning that it takes twice as long to squeeze people on and off.

Any 2 minute delay on a train is going to have a knock on delay to other trains in that area such is the tightness of the scheduling.

 

[Hunting 784561]

I went to see Hertha at the Olympic Stadium in Berlin a few months ago, and there was a U bahn train back to the City Centre every 2 minutes after the game.

I get very frustrated at the 'why it cant be done' mentatility in this country.

If the club can spend £90 Million + on a stadium that will benefit this City, area, and the local economy, I would like to see the train companies also rise to the challenge, and sort something out PDQ that will also benefit them.

 

[Gwylan]

Any 2 minute delay on a train is going to have a knock on delay to other trains in that area such is the tightness of the scheduling.

But it's not tight -that's precisely the point. If there's a 10-minute gap between trains, it doesn't make any difference if there's an 8-minute gap, that doesn't delay any trains. I've stood on platforms in London where trains arrive every 3 or 4 minutes, so 8 minutes is perfectly possible.

I agree with Smart Mart, we always look for reasons in this country not to do something, rather than do it. I've been on that train back from Hertha Berlin too and know how efficient it is. I appreciate that we can't lay a fast urban train link between Falmer and Brighton, but some money could be spent upgrading a train system so that it could run trains more frequently.

 

[Notters]

But it's not tight -that's precisely the point. If there's a 10-minute gap between trains, it doesn't make any difference if there's an 8-minute gap, that doesn't delay any trains. I've stood on platforms in London where trains arrive every 3 or 4 minutes, so 8 minutes is perfectly possible.

I agree with Smart Mart, we always look for reasons in this country not to do something, rather than do it. I've been on that train back from Hertha Berlin too and know how efficient it is. I appreciate that we can't lay a fast urban train link between Falmer and Brighton, but some money could be spent upgrading a train system so that it could run trains more frequently.

Gwylan, I think it's something to do with the fact that there aren't enough signals. The train can't be turning around whilst the next train is on its way to Lewes. The next train would have to wait behind a signal for the whole of the period that the first train was manoevering.

 

[British Bulldog]

But it's not tight -that's precisely the point. If there's a 10-minute gap between trains, it doesn't make any difference if there's an 8-minute gap, that doesn't delay any trains. I've stood on platforms in London where trains arrive every 3 or 4 minutes, so 8 minutes is perfectly possible.

It is tight thats the problem! Firstly if your looking at shunting 8 car trains at Lewes as LB quite rightly pointed out it has to shunt east of the station and by doing that your then blocking the lines in both directions, By doing that you've got to find a suitable gap between 12 trains an hour ( 6 in each direction ) without causing delay to other services.

Secondly you've got a tight schedule of trains running from Lewes to Brighton because of the old 2 aspect signalling system that still opperates on that line, You've got a 9 minute running time on the section between Falmer and Brighton and you can only have one train on that section at a time. Any delay on a train is soon going to have a knock on effect to the train behind it with those sort of section times.

If i still hav'nt got what your getting at appologies I'm still waiting for my medication to kick in.

 

[Hunting 784561]

I know LB said above that had Connex stated it 'could' be done, but has any kind of feasibility study been carried out on this yet ?

If not - why not ??

If it has - what are the costs involved ?

SEEDA are footing the bill for the fly-over and junction improvements around the A27/A270 - why isn't a similar funding operation being looked at for improvements to the rail service ?

 

[Napper]

Can see it being a bit of a mare and no doubt will be a bit of an exodus like withdean / the emirates.

Saturdays you can stay for a beer but weekdays will probably when the real fun and games happen. Chuck in a couple of thousand away fans and things could get very interesting

 

[Ernest]

It is tight thats the problem! Firstly if your looking at shunting 8 car trains at Lewes as LB quite rightly pointed out it has to shunt east of the station and by doing that your then blocking the lines in both directions, By doing that you've got to find a suitable gap between 12 trains an hour ( 6 in each direction ) without causing delay to other services.

Secondly you've got a tight schedule of trains running from Lewes to Brighton because of the old 2 aspect signalling system that still opperates on that line, You've got a 9 minute running time on the section between Falmer and Brighton and you can only have one train on that section at a time. Any delay on a train is soon going to have a knock on effect to the train behind it with those sort of section times.

If i still hav'nt got what your getting at appologies I'm still waiting for my medication to kick in.

You know it BB and I know it but it's a waste of time trying to explain to anyone here as they are simply TOO thick to understand

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

The point is that an 8 carriage train can only terminate at Lewes by delaying other trains on the line. The second point is that trains can't terminate (and reverse) at Falmer without causing really significant delays to other trains on the line.

They would have to send long trains way past Lewes (to Eastbourne or Newhaven) to clear Lewes station. And that means that the longer train would only contribute one useful travel opportunity to the total service.

Could the rail company not "double end"the trains that are used on match days?thus speeding up the reversing process.

 

[Notters]

Can see it being a bit of a mare and no doubt will be a bit of an exodus like withdean / the emirates.

Saturdays you can stay for a beer but weekdays will probably when the real fun and games happen. Chuck in a couple of thousand away fans and things could get very interesting

Not to mention extra time and penalties.