Footsoldier
Banned
- May 26, 2013
- 2,904
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5th Test: Sydney : 23:30 Start.
- Thread starter larus
- Start date
Is this the most embarrassing sporting debacle of a team or person representing this country at least since before England won the Rugby World Cup in 2003?
Pinkie Brown
Wir Sind das Volk
Without doubt. Far worse than 2007.
JCL - the new kid in town
Well-known member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
I don't think you can judge bairstow on these 2 matches as every time he has come in they have been in ridiculous positions and trying to bat your natural game in those circumstances is very difficult. I would have preferred Prior but once you make a change you need to give the new player a chance
Just heard Cook saying the Australian attack is the best he has ever faced. MJ has bowled well, but Harris, Lyon and Siddle ahead of McGrath, Lee, Warne?
I think Cookie has had too much of the Sydney syrup over the course of this tour.
Pinkie Brown
Wir Sind das Volk
Despite all the noises coming from the ECB and others, Flower should go. He's done well over the last few years, but after this disaster, he's tarnished and damaged goods. He'll always be associated with this disaster. A fresh face with new ideas and without the baggage of this tour is required.
As for Cook continuing as Captain? He's made some questionable decisions as Captain and also his form has gone right down the pan. He is a quality batsman but his confidence has been shot to pieces and he is mentally drained. To assist in him regaining his form and to help him recover from this trauma, ideally he should be replaced.
The big problem is: Who do you replace him with? I can honestly say, I have no clue? Bell has been suggested, but his form is poor and he needs to regain that. He doesn't need the burden of Captain. Maybe a proven Captain from from the County Circuit who is in the team purely as a Captain, similar to Mike Brierley all those years ago? Not ideal, but like Brierley, a stop gap solution maybe? He was also dragged out of test match retirement when Botham resigned the captaincy after being under severe pressure in 1981 when losing the first Test to Australia. The rest was history.
There needs to be a serious postmortem to dissect this disaster and map out a way forward to rebuild. No fudge of half fix will do. On the plus side, we only have until 2015 for the opportunity of revenge - or another humiliation? Which will it be?
As for Cook continuing as Captain? He's made some questionable decisions as Captain and also his form has gone right down the pan. He is a quality batsman but his confidence has been shot to pieces and he is mentally drained. To assist in him regaining his form and to help him recover from this trauma, ideally he should be replaced.
The big problem is: Who do you replace him with? I can honestly say, I have no clue? Bell has been suggested, but his form is poor and he needs to regain that. He doesn't need the burden of Captain. Maybe a proven Captain from from the County Circuit who is in the team purely as a Captain, similar to Mike Brierley all those years ago? Not ideal, but like Brierley, a stop gap solution maybe? He was also dragged out of test match retirement when Botham resigned the captaincy after being under severe pressure in 1981 when losing the first Test to Australia. The rest was history.
There needs to be a serious postmortem to dissect this disaster and map out a way forward to rebuild. No fudge of half fix will do. On the plus side, we only have until 2015 for the opportunity of revenge - or another humiliation? Which will it be?
His looked a walking wicket in every match of his test career (14 now I think) I've got no confidence in his current technique whatsoever.
Lifelong Supporter
Well-known member
With you fully on this.
JCL - the new kid in town
Well-known member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
He's had a couple of scores but does seem to get out early most if the time. I understand your concerns however once you make a change i feel you need to stick with it for a while to give the player a chance without the extra pressure of thinking they have one chance to make it. I know he's had a few matches but how many were back to back? However i wouldn't be adverse to them just putting him in as a batter to relieve some of the pressure and see how he does then
What a complete shambles this tour has been from beginning to end.
Flower has to go, we have not just lost 5-0. We have lost by 381 runs, 218 runs, 150 runs, eight wickets and 281 runs! In football terms that is what? 6-0, 4-0, 3-0, 4-2 (from two goals up at halftime) and 5-0! No coach in any form of sport should keep their job after a run of performances like that. It is unacceptable, his contract is up (I think) and if it is renewed it will be a dark day for English cricket. What has gone before this tour is irrelevant.
As for Cook he has to step down for his own sanity as much as anything. He is clearly not up to it, the pressure has got him big time. As to who replaces him, I really have no idea. Bell doesn't strike me as Captaincy material, Anderson will retire soon, Broad is a bit too hot headed and no one else is guaranteed a place in the side. I think it has to be Broad by default, which really does not feel me with great confidence for the future.
As for Bairstow as wicket keeper, he also just isn't good enough. His 'keeping is poor at best and his batting is equally suspect. He gets bowled far too often for a supposed top order batsman.
Pietersen needs to be told to go, he just isn't a team player. Also, you cannot tell the new players to play sensibly and to value their wicket if you are going to allow Pietersen to repeatedly get away with it. He is just too divisive for a team that needs rebuilding, and needs a massive attitude change.
Flower has to go, we have not just lost 5-0. We have lost by 381 runs, 218 runs, 150 runs, eight wickets and 281 runs! In football terms that is what? 6-0, 4-0, 3-0, 4-2 (from two goals up at halftime) and 5-0! No coach in any form of sport should keep their job after a run of performances like that. It is unacceptable, his contract is up (I think) and if it is renewed it will be a dark day for English cricket. What has gone before this tour is irrelevant.
As for Cook he has to step down for his own sanity as much as anything. He is clearly not up to it, the pressure has got him big time. As to who replaces him, I really have no idea. Bell doesn't strike me as Captaincy material, Anderson will retire soon, Broad is a bit too hot headed and no one else is guaranteed a place in the side. I think it has to be Broad by default, which really does not feel me with great confidence for the future.
As for Bairstow as wicket keeper, he also just isn't good enough. His 'keeping is poor at best and his batting is equally suspect. He gets bowled far too often for a supposed top order batsman.
Pietersen needs to be told to go, he just isn't a team player. Also, you cannot tell the new players to play sensibly and to value their wicket if you are going to allow Pietersen to repeatedly get away with it. He is just too divisive for a team that needs rebuilding, and needs a massive attitude change.
Is that a boast?
Mo Gosfield
Well-known member
- Aug 11, 2010
- 6,362
Outside of the management, the three biggest problems in this series have been....
COOK
PIETERSEN
PRIOR
Three senior players expected to lead by example and inspire the younger, inexperienced players.
1) Cook...Mentally weak, can't lift and inspire on the field...technique found out again, confidence shattered, a gimme wicket at the top of the order. The worst display of opening batting I have ever seen in a five Test series. As soon as he walked out the dressing room, the players knew he was coming back quickly. The first time in English Test cricket history that all eleven players padded up at the same time. We all know Cook's game collapses regularly but the management have decided that we should all witness this painful, gut-wrenching, disintegration over many weeks. Cook's display has sapped all confidence out of this side. The " Here we go again " feeling prevalent. The poorest captaincy and in equal measure, the poorest opening batting, I have seen in over 40 years of Test cricket.
2) Pietersen....From the moment this man walked into the England team, quite a few years ago, he has played for himself. Selfish and ego-centric he has been embraced by management, teammates and supporters as the saviour. He has been built up into this super-hero, striding out to smash the opposition into smithereens. His reputation cemented by his 158 v Aussies 2005, where he rode his luck, being dropped 3-4 times before he reached 50. Since then, it has been a mixture of brilliance, frustration and awful.
His temperament lets him down. He only wants to play one way, to dominate from the start. He isn't prepared to hang around. Not interested in the state of the game, only in ' team Pietersen ', he will get out rather than go through the hard work of battling it out. He doesn't like quick bowling and/or sustained pressure. Mentally he can't cope with it. An archetypal flat track bully. He has relied thus far on a superb eye, that has allowed him to play across the line...the whip from off-stump through mid-wicket. But he is well into his 30's now and his powers are waning. He is in sharp decline. He is now a liability. Sadly, I fear we will have to witness a slow lingering end as management and fans refuse to accept the inevitable.
3) Prior...I have written a lot of words about Matt Prior this series and all I'm going to say is...posters on here should put away their Sussex tinted spectacles and accept his time is up. His wicketkeeping at Test level has never been anything much more than acceptable. Never outstanding. It is his batting that is the problem. He has always been technically challenged and ridden his luck. Like KP, he is a flat-track bully, slapping runs against tiring bowlers and an old ball. Like KP, he doesn't like quick, hostile bowling ( No one does, to be honest ) The difference is, some players are prepared to go through the muck and bullets and grind it out. Prior, like KP, hasn't the temperament for this and will give it away. Hence, all this series, he has been getting out cheaply and quickly. His lack of character has been painfully exposed this series
Three senior players who needed to carry the side. Three senior players who collapsed under pressure and heaped all the pressure on others less experienced. It was too much to cope with. It was unfair on others.
It should mean a rest period for Cook and retirement for Pietersen and Prior but the ECB'S endorsement of Flower means that very little will change and no responsibilty will be taken for abject failure.
COOK
PIETERSEN
PRIOR
Three senior players expected to lead by example and inspire the younger, inexperienced players.
1) Cook...Mentally weak, can't lift and inspire on the field...technique found out again, confidence shattered, a gimme wicket at the top of the order. The worst display of opening batting I have ever seen in a five Test series. As soon as he walked out the dressing room, the players knew he was coming back quickly. The first time in English Test cricket history that all eleven players padded up at the same time. We all know Cook's game collapses regularly but the management have decided that we should all witness this painful, gut-wrenching, disintegration over many weeks. Cook's display has sapped all confidence out of this side. The " Here we go again " feeling prevalent. The poorest captaincy and in equal measure, the poorest opening batting, I have seen in over 40 years of Test cricket.
2) Pietersen....From the moment this man walked into the England team, quite a few years ago, he has played for himself. Selfish and ego-centric he has been embraced by management, teammates and supporters as the saviour. He has been built up into this super-hero, striding out to smash the opposition into smithereens. His reputation cemented by his 158 v Aussies 2005, where he rode his luck, being dropped 3-4 times before he reached 50. Since then, it has been a mixture of brilliance, frustration and awful.
His temperament lets him down. He only wants to play one way, to dominate from the start. He isn't prepared to hang around. Not interested in the state of the game, only in ' team Pietersen ', he will get out rather than go through the hard work of battling it out. He doesn't like quick bowling and/or sustained pressure. Mentally he can't cope with it. An archetypal flat track bully. He has relied thus far on a superb eye, that has allowed him to play across the line...the whip from off-stump through mid-wicket. But he is well into his 30's now and his powers are waning. He is in sharp decline. He is now a liability. Sadly, I fear we will have to witness a slow lingering end as management and fans refuse to accept the inevitable.
3) Prior...I have written a lot of words about Matt Prior this series and all I'm going to say is...posters on here should put away their Sussex tinted spectacles and accept his time is up. His wicketkeeping at Test level has never been anything much more than acceptable. Never outstanding. It is his batting that is the problem. He has always been technically challenged and ridden his luck. Like KP, he is a flat-track bully, slapping runs against tiring bowlers and an old ball. Like KP, he doesn't like quick, hostile bowling ( No one does, to be honest ) The difference is, some players are prepared to go through the muck and bullets and grind it out. Prior, like KP, hasn't the temperament for this and will give it away. Hence, all this series, he has been getting out cheaply and quickly. His lack of character has been painfully exposed this series
Three senior players who needed to carry the side. Three senior players who collapsed under pressure and heaped all the pressure on others less experienced. It was too much to cope with. It was unfair on others.
It should mean a rest period for Cook and retirement for Pietersen and Prior but the ECB'S endorsement of Flower means that very little will change and no responsibilty will be taken for abject failure.
Don Tmatter
Well-known member
Nail on the head Mo, what would your team be for the 1st test of our summer?
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,273
No, but I stayed up til just about 1am and got fed up with the Convicts just lamping the odd couple of four balls an over untroubled. I then realised that the rice pudding pitch on which the Aussies were flaying us was about to turn in to a death trap for our fragile batsmen. So I abandoned and was not unduly surprised to see we just rolled over as usual.
I mean no matter how bad we used to be at times at least we would have a couple of batsmen who would dig in for a bit and build a bit of a partnership sometimes as much as a hundred ! Even a few years back the Strauss/Cook/ Trescothick opening partnerships would often get us off to a hundred + start....nowdays the door is open from the off.
sydney
tinky ****in winky
shyte , shyte and a bit more shyte , and then a bit more.......the final innings was a complete joy to behold........the last time i was that pissed off was may last year....shyte....!!!
Yes. Strauss was great. I wonder whether his resignation was when the team began to fall apart. This was the time of the KP false twitter account and KP texting his countrymen on how to get Strauss out.
Bell and Pietersen look absolutely shot. They're not that old and they should have a few years left, but if the selectors said "Sorry lads, you're both in decline and living on past glories so we're going to give someone else a go next year" not only could they not complain but secretly I think they'd be relieved.
Shropshire Seagull
Well-known member
Looks like KP has twittered Micheal Clarke to tell him how to get the whole fecking squad out now, including himself ....
If this Ashes series had been a boxing match, the ref would have stepped in halfway through the 2nd round [match] to call the contest off.
I'm a cricket coach, coaching at county, school and club level, mostly to u15s - this England performance is going to be difficult to manage in the minds of these boys who have seen their idols roll over and have their tummies tickled ....
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
That was worse than the blackwashes in the 80's, the West Indian bowlers were truly terrifying but this Aussie lot are nothing compared to Holding, Marshall & co. Makes you wonder what has happened behind the scenes for it all to fall apart so quickly