2017 Manchester arena attack

[Bigtomfu]

This is obviously a personal view based on your perception of the risk presented.

Maybe due to working in London and being more accustomed to seeing armed police on the streets, and being vigilant I don't share your view. While the events of Manchester and Westminster are obviously still fresh, statistically being exposed to terrorism is a rare occurrence.

I recall that after the 7/7 attacks, London carried on as before. While we had people from Leeds and elsewhere refusing to come to London shortly afterwards due to their perception of the risk, overlooking the fact that we were still at our desks in London.

On my last visit to new York there were troops on the streets and at the subway stations but this didn't stop me from enjoying the visit and getting around New York as you would normally. In fact it was rather reassuring which was probably the main point of deploying them.

I know it can come across as being blase and I don't want to belittle your valid concerns, but I work on the principle that if your times up, its up and there is no point worrying about what may or may not happen.

If the FA Cup final on Saturday is shown around the world and there are large areas of empty seats as people have decided to stay away due to their perception of the risk, does this mean that the terrorists have won?

Whatever your wide and brother in law decide to do, I hope that they can enjoy the game and that you can relax anf not worry about their safety.

I work in Mayfair, and am VERY accustomed to seeing armed police and uniformed military guarding St James's Palace so it's nothing to do with that.

I just feel that what if this was a cell as they fear and that Manchester was a dry run for something bigger in a stadium/venue?

I accept that we can't change our lives for every little thing that happens and was back on the tube post 7/7 the next day but my response was brought about by the perception that the critical threat level is always used after this sort of scenario when it isn't.

They clearly have very credible intelligence that this definitely wasn't a one off loan wolf scenario and that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Yes I accept the odds of being killed in a terrorism related incident are infinitesimally small versus being say run over crossing the road but to take this situation lightly is in my opinion fool hardy.

Whilst I don't want the perpetrators to have 'won' it's a sobering time to be living in and any allegorical references to WWII are missing the point. There we were dealing with a known threat, a common enemy who weren't hiding in the shadows and it was abundantly clear what the risks were so the only way of dealing with that was to go about your business in a stoic stiff upper lipped manner.

Here the enemy could be anyone, the attack won't be heralded by the sound of an air raid siren and it will be aiming for maximum collateral damage.


Sometimes right, sometimes wrong but ALWAYS certain

 

[Soulman]

And your solution to the problem as you describe it is what exactly?

Well, many of these terrorists are radicals because of their teachings, this has been highlighted by programmes on C4 for instance. Has anything really been done to close down these sources?. How long has it taken to arrest Choudary for example, his teachings attributed to the death of Drummer Rigby and possibly others. It has been put out that more than a dozen ex ISIS fighters have returned to the area around where the exposition went off, why were they allowed to just to "blend" in. How long has it taken to get rid of known radicals like Hamza. Even the ISIS flag is allowed to be flown on marches.
Tolerance and being frightened to upset a certain community has not helped those youngsters and others who have lost their lives.
Are we getting any trouble or deaths from any other religion/ideology in this country. I care more for the dead than upsetting those that cause it.

 

[portlock seagull]

100% agree, and our paths must have crossed as I went to Salford uni lived in Wigan while working in Warrington at the time of the bomb in a shop that rented space in a now famous diy shop focus. Do you remember a betting shop on the high street and in the window as a poster to bet on football they had a window size picture of Terry Conner going up for a header, I went in and rescued it.

So you remember the Pav?!! And the Crescent Pub?!

 

[Lower West Stander]

Accepting the undeniable tragedy that you have offered of a friend of a friend , but posting from Dubai and not even a hint of irony as you demand tolerance and unchallenging religious comment with its own indefensible intolerance is quite unbelievable.

I am guessing you are at the $100 all you can eat buffet and its wow wee ..............

Why do people continue to spout garbage on to this thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bold Seagull]

Well, many of these terrorists are radicals because of their teachings, this has been highlighted by programmes on C4 for instance. Has anything really been done to close down these sources?. How long has it taken to arrest Choudary for example, his teachings attributed to the death of Drummer Rigby and possibly others. It has been put out that more than a dozen ex ISIS fighters have returned to the area around where the exposition went off, why were they allowed to just to "blend" in. How long has it taken to get rid of known radicals like Hamza. Even the ISIS flag is allowed to be flown on marches.
Tolerance and being frightened to upset a certain community has not helped those youngsters and others who have lost their lives.
Are we getting any trouble or deaths from any other religion/ideology in this country. I care more for the dead than upsetting those that cause it.

The security services, here, Europe, US, main source of intel is from the communities, informants and cooperation. They thwarted other potential attacks through information being passed forward, communities feeling safe to do so. I agree everything has to be done to prevent preaching of hate, and to some degree that has happened, and has to continue to happen. The intelligence community know information and cooperation are their biggest weapons.

 

[Soulman]

The security services, here, Europe, US, main source of intel is from the communities, informants and cooperation. They thwarted other potential attacks through information being passed forward, communities feeling safe to do so. I agree everything has to be done to prevent preaching of hate, and to some degree that has happened, and has to continue to happen. The intelligence community know information and cooperation are their biggest weapons.

I am not arguing against your post but it has not addressed the points I made. We know the authorities have thwarted many attacks, but these might have been prevented at source, long before.
It is well known that radicalization is going on in prisons, indeed some prisons seem to be run by preachers, what is being done.

 

[Insel affe]

So you remember the Pav?!! And the Crescent Pub?!

I never actually went out in Warrington as I lived briefly in Wigan and then moved to student digs in Rusholme were there was a more student kinda nightlife going on, I just drove to Warrington for about a year and half four days a week on my Vespa.

 

[studio150]

Well, many of these terrorists are radicals because of their teachings, this has been highlighted by programmes on C4 for instance. Has anything really been done to close down these sources?. How long has it taken to arrest Choudary for example, his teachings attributed to the death of Drummer Rigby and possibly others. It has been put out that more than a dozen ex ISIS fighters have returned to the area around where the exposition went off, why were they allowed to just to "blend" in. How long has it taken to get rid of known radicals like Hamza. Even the ISIS flag is allowed to be flown on marches.
Tolerance and being frightened to upset a certain community has not helped those youngsters and others who have lost their lives.
Are we getting any trouble or deaths from any other religion/ideology in this country. I care more for the dead than upsetting those that cause it.

The Far right has spoken, lets ban flags, speech, certain religions....

The only surprise is the Farage Leave poster of refuges wasn't posted.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It is impossible to stop, whatever the rating nobody really changes their way of life because deep down nobody really believes it will happen to them. Because it probably won't. So go about as normal, keep calm and carry on as the war generation used to say. Time for this generation to walk that talk rather than just buy 'witty' merchandise with that on. But don't let 1 nutter or his mates stop you living your life. That really is madness. And really what other choice is there? No where's entirely safe and never has been.

Keep buggering on as Winston used to say!

Agreed but the rating isn't really for joe public. It kick starts procedures across various government and pseudo government bodies. A good example is I used to work in a government building, the level was raised and all of a sudden we couldn't park within a certain distance from the building. All entrances were banned from use except the main one which had security upgraded from swipe cards to physical guards. All bags were then searched and all public access denied. The threat level is made public to show us that the government are doing something and to help us understand why there is extra security at public venues and restricted to access to other places.

 

[Bozza]

They clearly have very credible intelligence that this definitely wasn't a one off loan wolf scenario and that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Not necessarily.

It could also mean that they have thus far been able to determine whether this attacker was working alone or was part of a bigger group so, in light of that, status moves to "critical" as a precautionary measure whilst those investigations continue. (This isn't my prognosis, but one I just heard from a supposed security expert on the radio)

Regardless, does it really change anything for any of us? We know that these attacks are now, sadly, becoming part of our lives. Not our every day lives because we are fortunate that those who wish to undertake these attacks are still relatively few and far between and our security services do a fantastic job in stopping most of them. Unfortunately, we know there will be a next time though, it's just a matter of when/where.

 

[simmo]

Whilst that's an entirely understandable outlook for me we can't afford to think that way. What happened in Manchester last sight was deeply, deeply upsetting and personally for me probably the most shocking event, even if not necessarily the deadliest, since 9/11.

But it needs some context. As a proportion of all deaths in the Western world, terrorism accounts for a tiny, tiny fraction. Compared to things like cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, car accidents and so on it's not even visible on the scale, and yet the average person doesn't wander round worrying about the prospect of those things as they go about their daily lives (even if they probably should in some cases).

Naturally, sudden, mass fatalities as a result of indiscriminate attacks make for much more shocking and distressing news stories but we have to remember that the odds of being directly caught up in such an atrocity are minute. The power of the terrorist ulitimately lies in shock value.

The threat from terror shows no sign of abating - I really don't know how you can prevent every conceivable attack on public spaces like this, but the threat for any given individual remains small.

By all means, take steps to reduce that risk further by making a different choice where an alternative exists which doesn't restrict your freedom - I'd personally not consider taking my family to Egypt, Tunisia or Morocco et al but then there are plenty of other places I can go without losing out. What we mustn't do is stop doing the things we'd normally do in our own towns and cities.

My grandparent's generation had to continue getting on with their everyday lives even when there was a very real threat of death and destruction on a daily basis. If they didn't, we lost the war - simple as that.

Opting out of a cup final doesn't lose us any wars, but it's the thin end of the wedge. If we start actively avoiding our sporting venues, concert halls and theatres then how long before that becomes shopping centres, transport networks and financial districts?

We simply have to continue living our lives.

My thoughts are that terror could happen any place, any time, anywhere...so why not do what I want to do. In fact I recently went to Morocco and prior to this I was in two minds, but I thought to myself, I could go there and something could happen here and lo and behold it did...the attack in Westminster occurred while I was in Morocco.

Also as well, as someone else has stated I believe that if your time is up, your time is up. People whom left the concert early on Monday night survived, people whom left late (and were still in the arena when the bomb went off) survived, people whom left out of the exits not adjacent to the railway station survived....some poor unfortunates were just sadly in the wrong place at the wrong time (and I send my heart felt condolences to them and their families).

Don't let these terrorist scum change you, do what you want to do (be vigilant of course, like any right minded person would be) and enjoy your life, to its utmost, however long or short it may be.

 

[JCL666]

Sadly you are right.......til it happens again.

Wow well done.

 

[JCL666]

Whilst that's an entirely understandable outlook for me we can't afford to think that way. What happened in Manchester last sight was deeply, deeply upsetting and personally for me probably the most shocking event, even if not necessarily the deadliest, since 9/11.

But it needs some context. As a proportion of all deaths in the Western world, terrorism accounts for a tiny, tiny fraction. Compared to things like cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes, car accidents and so on it's not even visible on the scale, and yet the average person doesn't wander round worrying about the prospect of those things as they go about their daily lives (even if they probably should in some cases).

Naturally, sudden, mass fatalities as a result of indiscriminate attacks make for much more shocking and distressing news stories but we have to remember that the odds of being directly caught up in such an atrocity are minute. The power of the terrorist ulitimately lies in shock value.

The threat from terror shows no sign of abating - I really don't know how you can prevent every conceivable attack on public spaces like this, but the threat for any given individual remains small.

By all means, take steps to reduce that risk further by making a different choice where an alternative exists which doesn't restrict your freedom - I'd personally not consider taking my family to Egypt, Tunisia or Morocco et al but then there are plenty of other places I can go without losing out. What we mustn't do is stop doing the things we'd normally do in our own towns and cities.

My grandparent's generation had to continue getting on with their everyday lives even when there was a very real threat of death and destruction on a daily basis. If they didn't, we lost the war - simple as that.

Opting out of a cup final doesn't lose us any wars, but it's the thin end of the wedge. If we start actively avoiding our sporting venues, concert halls and theatres then how long before that becomes shopping centres, transport networks and financial districts?

We simply have to continue living our lives.

Great post.

I found it unsettling working in Paris over the last few years and used to be incredibly nervous getting on the Eurostar as my mind would be playing out all of the scenarios of a terrorist attack, but if we don't carry on then they win.

 

[Soulman]

Wow well done.

Thanks, I was asked what I would do to combat these attacks, maybe you could elaborate and give us your opinion.

 

[Scotchegg]

indeed some prisons seem to be run by preachers, what is being done.

Come on man, you know the drill. If you're going to spout out something like this, you're gonna need to back it up with a source. That's a big statement.

I'm half interested in calling out your bs and half intetested in reading more about this if there is any proof whatsoever.

 

[JCL666]

Thanks, I was asked what I would do to combat these attacks, maybe you could elaborate and give us your opinion.

Nothing beyond what is being done.

There are people with a much deeper understanding of the challenges working every day to mitigate the risks we face from terrorism.

I'll live my life and that won't include
- mocking those who use social media to show solidarity
- dismissing that there are deeply complex reasons as to why people commit these acts


I'm not posting on this thread anymore as it's degenerated as they always do into a politicised set of opinions.

F**k terrorism.

RIP to those who lost their lives.

 

[Saint Lennard]

I really wish they wouldn't name these extremist scumbags. It's what they want surely! Just scrape them up and bin 'em, and never plaster their ugly mugs all over the media.

Hmmm maybe it's a way of getting more evidence of his movements leading up to this?

 

[Saint Lennard]

Not necessarily.

It could also mean that they have thus far been able to determine whether this attacker was working alone or was part of a bigger group so, in light of that, status moves to "critical" as a precautionary measure whilst those investigations continue. (This isn't my prognosis, but one I just heard from a supposed security expert on the radio)

Regardless, does it really change anything for any of us? We know that these attacks are now, sadly, becoming part of our lives. Not our every day lives because we are fortunate that those who wish to undertake these attacks are still relatively few and far between and our security services do a fantastic job in stopping most of them. Unfortunately, we know there will be a next time though, it's just a matter of when/where.

SO WE ALL NEED TO BE VIGILANT and encourage everyone else to be.

 

[BevBHA]

The Far right has spoken, lets ban flags, speech, certain religions....

The only surprise is the Farage Leave poster of refuges wasn't posted.

oh right, so you think it is acceptable that the flag of ISIS is allowed to be flown in marches on British soil? f*cking imbecile

 

[BigGully]

As tempted as I am, I'm not going to bite here at all.

Not at a time when innocent people have died.

If you do not wish to engage that's fine, but it's becoming increasingly evident that post Princess Di, there are those that have made themselves the sole arbiters of grieving etiquette a macabre game of Top Trumps almost.

Outside of those directly effected, I am not sure a friend of friend, or a university placement in Manchester 30 years ago, or a Ariana Grande ticket for a London concert due to take place this week really makes anyone closer or more empathetic to the tragedy than anyone else.

I am still not clear why for some people debate should somehow be shut down, especially when I presume, unlike other posters it seems, that every poster shares a similar sadness to this event, who couldn't, for me its an absolute given

But again there is a call from you and others for some vague cooling down period and if not it disqualifies your sadness apparently, when exactly did that come into the rule book and how long is it anyway (it seems today is fill yer boots), by the way I cannot recall anyone lending the same set of rules to the European or Syrian atrocities, it was straight into reasonable debate.

So back to my point, whilst I wouldn't wish to travel to countries that only reflect western values, when in predominately Muslim Dubai you ask posters to desist in religious debate after a Islamic attack in Manchester, I think its a fair swipe to point out that human rights particularly discrimination against women in UAE is quite disgraceful.