Yes.
It's difficult enough for many people to make their/our way in the world, get decent employment, income, housing etc, run a country even...and they generally don't want to be encumbered by history.
It comes back to bite though.
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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
It's difficult enough for many people to make their/our way in the world, get decent employment, income, housing etc, run a country even...and they generally don't want to be encumbered by history.
It comes back to bite though.
I know. It is profoundly, worryingly depressing. NATO expansion, protecting Russian speakers, paying back Ukrainian fascists from WW2, etc, etc, etc, nothing can justify what Putin has done - and not only does Trump excuse it all he blames the wrong people. What a total ****. (As an aside, and I didn't think this was possible, my respect for Zelensky has gone up even more).Maybe that's part of it, but if Zelenskiy brought him a Ukrainian pilot's jacket as a gift, Trump would say he'd prefer a Russian one IMO.
It's just the attacks on Zelenskiy and Ukraine have been consistent, from Trump, Vance, Musk:
- I don't care what happens to Ukraine
- he's a conman, a mediocre comedian
- he's a dictator
- there should be elections
- Ukraine started the war
.....
And not one criticism of Russia or Putin.
Trump's had a relationship with Putin and Russia for decades: business deals, money coming in to fund political positions etc.
I don't think this can be fixed by Zelenskiy saying 'sorry' (and for what).
These attacks were all planned, and in plain sight.
I would love to be proved wrong, and that Trump will pivot, but at the moment I don't see it.
It's definitely a new era, and it's not a good one. God knows how it'll end, but if the like of George Monbiot, one of the left-wing founders of the Respect party, can write an article in the Guardian about the need for increased defence spending then at least there is acknowledgement across the political spectrum that the world HAS changed and the old Cold War era with its comfortable certainties has completely disappeared.
Doug-ees-evil
Active member
- Nov 18, 2011
- 108
Yes totally agree. How we 'manage' that could determine the next big crisis hapenning or not (or another to pile on top of the many crises we are collecting at the moment). With virtually the entire old East German block voting AfD recently (I believe?), there can be no room for complacency here.
Indeed. I like Monbiot, a man of principle, I must read that article.
And the NATO expansion thing, it's not that Russia truly feared an invasion from NATO (IMO). Russia just mainly
1. Didn't want their old province of Ukraine succeeding as a democratic nation, on their doorstep.
2. Wants the minerals (and possibly any population they don't kill) .
3. Keeping Ukraine out of NATO was a way to ensure Russia could invade any time.
Since Sweden and Finland have joined NATO, Russia has actually moved troops AWAY from those borders, relocating then to Donbas and Kursk.
So, Russia's talk of fearing a NATO invasion is mainly BS.
You are right, the comfortable certainties (Peace in Europe, US alliance...) have disappeared.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 8,168
Multiple Russian attacks strike Ukraine overnight:
This follows Trump pausing aid, and stopping sharing intel with Ukraine, reducing Ukraine's ability to defend itself.
This follows Trump pausing aid, and stopping sharing intel with Ukraine, reducing Ukraine's ability to defend itself.
Ukraine war latest: Zelensky says UK and US volunteers survived Russian attack on hotel that killed four
The attack on Zelensky's home town of Kryvyi Rih happened as the Ukrainian president heads to Brussels to meet European leaders.
www.bbc.co.uk
Yes, that was a telling graphic last week of the majority of East Germany voting AfD. I wonder what the age profiling shows
.Integration, what integration? Could take generations and incredible investment.
- Jan 18, 2009
- 5,029
I know, I really appreciate you taking time out from your role up in Northolt to straighten me out on contemporary military and geo political affairs. Nonetheless I am struggling with your proposition. According to you…..Putin is on his knees. The defence strategy in place, until Trump turned up, was for the defence of Europe against the Russia of old. This isn’t the case now as the disastrous attempt by Russia to invade Ukraine has shown. The old Russia would have steamrolled through Ukraine. Europe as it stands, with the right strategy and investment, Europe doesn’t have anything to fear from Russia. The question Europe has is does it have the willing to push Russia out of Ukraine, not can it defend against Russia. Russia isn’t ready or willing to take on Europe because they are f***ed as three years doing not a lot, other than killing indiscriminately, in Ukraine has shown
and yes you are bore and your military knowledge is embarrassing poor.
1) Russia and Putin militarily are on their knees.
2) Europe needs to simply decide if it wants to go to war with Russia to regain the ground lost by Ukraine
3) Europe has nothing to fear from Russia
If these points were all true no one in Europe would be so bothered that Trump is walking away from Ukraine. Europe would backfill the Ukrainian coffers and armaments with its own money and armaments. We know that’s not happening and can’t happen.
It would also have an “army” ready to deploy to a battlefield close to 1500-2000 miles away, subject to which random European country we are talking about. We know it doesn’t and to do so would take at least 5-10 years.
Your confidence that Europe can hang out its washing on the Donbas line is misguided. Militarily Europe (without the US) against Russia is not straightforward war on a number of levels……not least because other countries are already out the coalition of the willing.
The lead up begins at 5.15...Very true.
I missed the occasion of Zelenskiy showing Trump photos
- Jan 18, 2009
- 5,029
You sound like you are checking out Amazon for a bumper order of white feathers.
That doesn’t change the fact though that Europe is militarily unprepared for war with Russia. Its populations, ours included (in my opinion) are also not ready to join the armed forces let alone fight an attritional war with Russia.
If raising these very real problems makes me a “defeatist” so be it……I am pretty sure if Starmer wants the nation to rally to the colours to fight in Ukraine there will be many more people like me than you.
The Clamp
Well-known member
Could have been showing him pictures of a wet weekend in Llandudno for all the concern Trump could muster.
Doug-ees-evil
Active member
- Nov 18, 2011
- 108
My gut says yes too. The free world needs UK, France and Germany strategically aligned on every level.. the tightest possible alliance to get out of this hole. With the rest of the free world countries united behind them. Massive respect to Macron btw. Stepping up it seems, hopefully with actions as well as words.I think they'll be ok ()
The US has left the stage. It is an incredible thing to have to write, gut-wrenching and disastrous in fact. The trust may never come back for the US amongst its allies and we could be saddled with a semi-fascist, oligarch-driven, corrupt and power/land hungry US for many years to come, way after Trump. Or US could descend into civil war... I can't believe there won't be an internal reaction to this.
Amazing really that nuclear proliferation was kept under control for 70 years. Well that's about to change ominously. Who can blame any free, democratic country now from developing their own nukes in this new volatile and dangerous world?
Very well said.
- Aug 24, 2020
- 8,168
This may appear a bit peripheral, but it may not be.
A few weeks ago, President Erdogan of Turkey declared that Russia should leave all its occupied territories in Ukraine. The Crimean Tatars (the ones who are left in Crimea after previous forced migrations to Russia) are descended from Turks.
This may be nothing, or the publication of this may be an invitation from Ukraine for Turkey to get involved. Turkey is of course, a member of Nato.
A few weeks ago, President Erdogan of Turkey declared that Russia should leave all its occupied territories in Ukraine. The Crimean Tatars (the ones who are left in Crimea after previous forced migrations to Russia) are descended from Turks.
This may be nothing, or the publication of this may be an invitation from Ukraine for Turkey to get involved. Turkey is of course, a member of Nato.
GoldstoneVintage
Well-known member
I thinks it's time to stop pandering to Trump. The excuse was always that flattering him gets him onside. However, this strategy clearly hasn't worked. Time for leaders of free countries to call him out for the bullshitter he is instead of bolstering his narratives. Maybe then at least some more people will be able to see this emporer has no clothes.
Deportivo Seagull
I should coco
I haven’t been to Northolt in a while so wouldn‘t know but
1) Russia is on its knees as they are having to borrow troops from NK and have used mercenaries, and then there’s the emptying out of the jails to find troops .. and sending wounded troops back to the front line. That really is the behaviours of an army that is just purring along without a worry on the world.
2) That is not what I said and you know it. I said that the question that Europe has is 8do they have the willing to try and evict Russia from Ukraine‘. That is not ‘simply’ a case of turning up.
3) again not what I said. Are you naturally this much of a knob or do you practice? I said that Russia is not in a position to take Europe as it couldn’t take Ukraine. We should all fear Putin because like Trump he’s a nut job however militarily Russia aren’t in a position to take on Europe. A cohesive and united Europe will worry him a whole lot more.
As for providing weapons and logistics to Ukraine not happening well it most certainly is, I know as it’s the industry I work in …
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Isn't it just. Time for Starmer to grow a pair and put the boot into Trump and stop being simpering and well, basically wet.
Doug-ees-evil
Active member
- Nov 18, 2011
- 108
Fantastic strong worded speech.
Claude Malhuret, French Senator in the French parliament.
Dubbed into English..i like this fella
Saw this yesterday too, What a f***ing speech. Every word.
Everything he says HAS to happen. Powerful and true.
