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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)



SouthSaxon

SouthSaxon

Stand or fall
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Jan 25, 2025
310
Giraffe said:
How did we go from “Trump is going to start WWWIII”…

…to now being angry that Trump is trying to stop WWIII from happening?

And explain it to me like I’m a five year old.
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We didn’t. Trump’s stated desire to avoid WWIII is, if it’s genuine at all, secondary to his own narcissistic goals. His deal. His peace. His victory.

He accused Zelenskyy of “gambling with WWIII” to exert control over him and make him look weak.
 




Birdie Boy

Birdie Boy

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2011
4,537
vegster said:
Yes, I think that this was inevitable and also sets the standard for Trump's " diplomacy " for the next four years. " Do as I want or else "

..I suggested recently we wind down cooperation with the US in anticipation of exactly just what has happened. The government is still hoping it can be a " Bridge " between Europe and the US but I really don't think we can be, when Trump does not get what he wants and he does not get the grovelling prostration he demands, he will lash out. Our turn is coming.

Europe needs to ramp up military production and face the fact that NATO hangs by a thread, in fact I'm sure Musk has already floated the idea of the US withdrawing from NATO. We need to be ready when it happens.
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I don't get why we need a European military, surely that's what NATO is there for, except maybe to bring in countries that are not in NATO? If we create a European military, I'm convinced Trump will pull out of NATO immediately. He will then tell the yanks how many billions he has saved them...
 


chickens

chickens

Have you considered masterly inactivity?
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Oct 12, 2022
3,018
lasvegan said:
What do mean when you say Ukraine will get nothing in return? Are you being serious? What firm security guarantees are you expecting?
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If you had one more eye you’d pass as a Cyclops.

Ukraine has signed peace deals at least twice before, Putin has not respected them, hence being where we are now.

Trump offering a peace deal without security guarantees is worthless. Putin will pause, rearm, then go again.

I understand that Trump wants to keep the US out of any conflicts, his best way of achieving that is to bring Ukraine into NATO, then taking the US out of it.

The only way of stopping Putin, sadly, is to beat him back on the battlefield, until he feels at genuine risk of losing. He sees everything else as a sign of weakness.

I get it, you’re in a different continent, you don’t travel, you don’t want your standard of living worsened by a conflict so far away. This is an existential threat to a country, just like yours, that has done nothing wrong but try to exercise its democratic right to determine its own future.

America has set itself up as the policeman of the world for decades, that has given America huge geopolitical power, but there are responsibilities that come along with that power.

What you have now, is a President who wants America to look after itself, and baulks at the cost of these policies that keep America where it is on the world stage. Which is fine, but you can’t then be setting international policy, you become diminished on a global stage.

A friend who lends an umbrella when the sun’s shining, but asks for it back when it rains is no friend at all. That America has chosen such an inward looking, selfish, individual as President, saddens us greatly. Life’s about to get a lot more expensive in America, as it reaps what it has knowingly and deliberately sown. I hope you’re not too negatively affected, but inflation is about to rise dramatically in the US. You can kiss rate cuts goodbye.

America was once a country that others looked to, there’s nothing I’d want from the America of today. That’s a fall from grace on a scale that I just haven’t seen in my lifetime.
 


P

portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
18,269
portslade
Birdie Boy said:
I don't get why we need a European military, surely that's what NATO is there for, except maybe to bring in countries that are not in NATO? If we create a European military, I'm convinced Trump will pull out of NATO immediately. He will then tell the yanks how many billions he has saved them...
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Yes a Nato that was the brainchild of Roosevelt after the 2nd world war which many tens of thousands of Americans gave their lives for. He is shitting on their sacrifices
 


Flounce

Flounce

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Nov 15, 2006
5,617
SouthSaxon said:
If he wants Trump’s support, yes, he has to play to the man’s narcissism. It’s unedifying and it’s awful, but he has no choice unless or until Europe can offer more meaningful military support.

But he does have “cards” he can play (Trump saying he doesn’t is just an attempt to control and subjugate). Trump’s narcissism can be used to advantage as Starmer demonstrated.

If I were Zelenskyy, I would offer to nominate Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize in exchange for security guarantees. But, after Friday, that might not be enough.

(I’m not saying Trump is in the right, but I have come around to the view that Zelenskyy didn’t help himself in not using techniques that Macron and Starmer did)
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Macron and Starmer weren’t set up in their meetings though. I have no idea how Macron would have reacted if he was and I suggest Starmer would not have fared well if he had been though. Trump and Vance have no shame so they don’t give a shit how they came out of their meeting with Zelensky.
 




beorhthelm

beorhthelm

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Jul 21, 2003
36,267
Birdie Boy said:
I don't get why we need a European military, surely that's what NATO is there for, except maybe to bring in countries that are not in NATO? If we create a European military, I'm convinced Trump will pull out of NATO immediately. He will then tell the yanks how many billions he has saved them...
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they are perparing for that scenario happening anyway. a lot of NATO command and logistics comes through US, albeit based in Europe. if they pulled out most nations wouldnt be able to mount serious coordinated action for some time. it's also political theatre, telling the non-Trumpian US policitans there's another option, which will unsettle them losing a lot of influence and show how serious we take Russia while their Commander-in-Chief is not.
 








WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
28,625
Giraffe said:
How did we go from “Trump is going to start WWWIII”…

…to now being angry that Trump is trying to stop WWIII from happening?

And explain it to me like I’m a five year old.
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Sorry, I wasted my time doing that for you about Brexit, then Johnson, then Farage all to no avail, and now you want me to tell you why you shouldn't back Trump ? I'm not getting caught like that again :wink:
 
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M

marlowe

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2015
4,542
raymondo said:
Yes, Waltz, I'm sure Zelenskiy regrets being ambushed by two Putin loving, vindictive, criminal arseholes...and you, Waltz are one and the same.

"U.S. President Donald Trump's administration wants to hear from Zelensky that he regrets the Oval Office clash, U.S. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz told Fox News on March 3.

"What we need to hear from President Zelensky is that he regrets what happened, that he's ready to sign this minerals deal, and that he's ready to engage in peace talks," Waltz said.
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Its as if for Trump, getting the grovelling apology is almost as important as getting the minerals deal.
 


L

Littlemo

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2022
1,954
Birdie Boy said:
I don't get why we need a European military, surely that's what NATO is there for, except maybe to bring in countries that are not in NATO? If we create a European military, I'm convinced Trump will pull out of NATO immediately. He will then tell the yanks how many billions he has saved them...
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They are going to leave it anyway I think. They have a habit of trailing things to see the reaction and then doing it a few weeks later. Musk just trailed the idea and the streets aren’t full burning cars so I’d expect it to come in a few weeks/months.
 




WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

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Jul 10, 2003
28,625
Rdodge30 said:
The financial settlement already agreed, the fund for rebuilding Ukraine

If the minerals belong to the U.S. I would be fairly certain that the U.S. will protect their financial assets but I don’t know what that would look like in terms of military
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So you're completely on board with Trump's plan ???

And given that the US had National Guard troops actually in Ukraine training the Ukrainians, which they withdrew days before Russia invaded, I don't see why a few US contractors would stop Putin this time round.
 
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peterward

peterward

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Nov 11, 2009
12,675
Giraffe said:
How did we go from “Trump is going to start WWWIII”…

…to now being angry that Trump is trying to stop WWIII from happening?

And explain it to me like I’m a five year old.
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Do you genuinely think a non nuclear invaded nation being murdered in its land, in a purely defensive posture, is going to start WW3?

Or could it be the case that to side with the nuclear power engaged in the atrocity, murdering on foreign soil, and who openly say "we will not stop at Ukraine"..... against the wishes of most European nations, makes WW3 far more likely?

Very easy to say Trump is trying to stop WW3 from happening as a slogan, analyse the reality and its far more likely that all these pro Russian imperialsm, anti NATO allies, anti Ukraine steps hes taking, causes WW3.
 


sparkie

sparkie

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Jul 17, 2003
13,438
Hove
Putin has won a major victory.

Most of Ukraine will be lost.

USA is lost under the Kremlin controlled President Krasnov, doing their every bidding.

Surely our intelligence services have briefed Starmer and the future defence of the UK is being planned. What is said in public will be just to buy time. Same with France and the rest of Europe.

The big danger point is now when Macron has to leave office in May 2027.
 




S

Springal

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2005
25,240
GOSBTS
Trump is playing a very brave game domestically. Ordering a stop of offensive cyber campaigns against Russia, eliminating large parts of their IT & Cyber workforce within the Govt.

If it’s not Russia, it’ll be Iran, or North Korea, or China…
 


fly high

fly high

Well-known member
Aug 25, 2011
1,995
in a house
Springal said:
Trump is playing a very brave game domestically. Ordering a stop of offensive cyber campaigns against Russia, eliminating large parts of their IT & Cyber workforce within the Govt.

If it’s not Russia, it’ll be Iran, or North Korea, or China…
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Maybe it's the start of his plan for trade and military alliance with Russia.
 


peterward

peterward

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Nov 11, 2009
12,675
sparkie said:
Putin has won a major victory.

Most of Ukraine will be lost.

USA is lost under the Kremlin controlled President Krasnov, doing their every bidding.

Surely our intelligence services have briefed Starmer and the future defence of the UK is being planned. What is said in public will be just to buy time. Same with France and the rest of Europe.

The big danger point is now when Macron has to leave office in May 2027.
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Ukraine has enough stashed weaponry to fight another year allegedly. Not sure if that included already agreed aid that's been stopped.

Cutting off US satellite intelligence would be devastating.

But don't underestimate Ukrainains. They repelled Russia when then only had anti tank weapons. They will fight to the death.

Most of Ukraine won't be lost.
 








sparkie

sparkie

Neo-Luddite
Jul 17, 2003
13,438
Hove
peterward said:
Ukraine has enough stashed weaponry to fight another year allegedly. Not sure if that included already agreed aid that's been stopped.

Cutting off US satellite intelligence would be devastating.

But don't underestimate Ukrainains. They repelled Russia when then only had anti tank weapons. They will fight to the death.

Most of Ukraine won't be lost.
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That is why I said most, not all of Ukraine :nono:
 


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