[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Mancgull]

The fact that the US equity markets have started to tank will put extra pressure on Trump.
Trump supporters are focused on ‘what’s in it for them’ so I imagine his ratings will fall further.

 

[The Rivet]

Trump keeps going on about a 'peace deal' that is ready as long as Zelenskey signs Americas mineral blackmail deal.
Does anyone know the details of this peace deal?
Do Russia get to keep ground taken in the east?
What protection policies are on the table from America?
Would the mining deal end when Bidens 'gift' is taken back?
Why do America assume Russia wouldn't attack again whilst US mining company personnel are in Ukraine?
Why does Trump assume other countries would support America then if they do?
Too many questions have NO answers!

 

[Seagull58]

Trump keeps going on about a 'peace deal' that is ready as long as Zelenskey signs Americas mineral blackmail deal.
Does anyone know the details of this peace deal?
Do Russia get to keep ground taken in the east?
What protection policies are on the table from America?
Would the mining deal end when Bidens 'gift' is taken back?
Why do America assume Russia wouldn't attack again whilst US mining company personnel are in Ukraine?
Why does Trump assume other countries would support America then if they do?
Too many questions have NO answers!

I don't believe there is a peace deal ready. There is simply a minerals deal ready then, once that is signed, Trump will try and do a deal with Putin.

 

[Rdodge30]

Option A
Ceasefire and agreement that Russia cannot mine the land they've taken. Sanctions remain while Russia occupy areas of Ukraine. Democratic countries agree that the land is part of Ukraine, currently occupied by Russia, and the land should never be recognised as part of Russia.
Ukraine continue to occupy areas of Kursk, but are not allowed to mine the area, and democratic countries agree that the land is part of Russia, currently occupied by Ukraine, and the land should never be recognised as part of Ukraine.

Meanwhile we help Ukraine build their army and we arm them to the teeth.

Option B
Arm Ukraine to the teeth and help them fight Russia, while increasing sanctions (and punishing any country that helps Russia).

To be honest, option A whilst well thought out and extremely effective- that’s actually the terms for peace, not achievable terms for a ceasefire. A ceasefire is simply stop fighting in order to negotiate terms such as you suggest.

I believe there will be a ceasefire, currently Macron is suggesting 1 month in order to negotiate terms (such as you suggest perhaps) there certainly won’t be any negotiation at all whilst guns are still firing. I read today that Zelenskyy is still prepared to sign the minerals deal so that is encouraging.

 

[peterward]

F**king orange w*nker has only gone and done it.

 

[Seagull58]

F**king orange w*nker has only gone and done it.

Another piece of the blackmail to persuade Zelensky to sign the minerals deal whilst getting nothing in return. IMO it's critical that Zelensky does NOT sign that deal until and unless he gets firm security guarantees from the US and confirmation that there will be no negotiations with Russia without Ukraine's involvement. I also think that Trump won't accept these conditions meaning Zelensky would be free to sign a deal with Europe and Trump can go and ask Putin for the $350 billion instead (good luck with that).

 

[lasvegan]

What do mean when you say Ukraine will get nothing in return? Are you being serious? What firm security guarantees are you expecting?

 

[Seagull58]

What do mean when you say Ukraine will get nothing in return? Are you being serious? What firm security guarantees are you expecting?

A firm security guarantee as per the guarantee that applies to every NATO country. If you continue to attack Ukraine or attack anew after a peace agreement then it is equivalent to attacking the US and all of NATO and will be responded to accordingly.
What do you think Zelensky is being offered in return? Trump has already "paused" all military support.

 

[lasvegan]

A firm security guarantee as per the guarantee that applies to every NATO country. If you continue to attack Ukraine or attack anew after a peace agreement then it is equivalent to attacking the US and all of NATO and will be responded to accordingly.
What do you think Zelensky is being offered in return? Trump has already "paused" all military support.

Is Ukraine in NATO?

 

[peterward]

Another piece of the blackmail to persuade Zelensky to sign the minerals deal whilst getting nothing in return. IMO it's critical that Zelensky does NOT sign that deal until and unless he gets firm security guarantees from the US and confirmation that there will be no negotiations with Russia without Ukraine's involvement. I also think that Trump won't accept these conditions meaning Zelensky would be free to sign a deal with Europe and Trump can go and ask Putin for the $350 billion instead (good luck with that).

Im of the mind, that not only was the Oval office ambush staged to try and humiliate zelensky and force him to capitulate to Trump before then being forced to capitualte to Putin..... that because that didnt work, they're now moving onto another strategy for what was always the main Plan A, to cut off Ukraine military aid and try to help Putin.

If Zelensky had of capitualted in the Oval office before, then they would have tried to force on Zelensky into some shit deal, where Russia pretty much gets what it wants territorially, Ukraine gets nothing, No NATO, no reparations and no security guarantees, and when Ukraine refused that, it would've been "Zelensky doesnt want peace, we're cutting military aid".

Whatever path or option Zelensky had taken, all roads would have lead to Trump cutting off aid and trying to help Putin.

 

[Rdodge30]

It’s important to remember that the mineral deal with the U.S. was Zelenskyy’s idea

It’s also important to understand that after initial dispute the financial terms of the mineral deal have provisionally been agreed by both sides.

The stalling point is Military and U.S. provision of security for Ukraine

I don’t understand all the talk on here of America robbing Ukraine

 

[lasvegan]

Im of the mind, that not only was the Oval office ambush staged to try and humiliate zelensky and force him to capitulate to Trump before then being forced to capitualte to Putin..... that because that didnt work, they're now moving onto another strategy for what was always the main Plan A, to cut off Ukraine military aid and try to help Putin.

If Zelensky had of capitualted in the Oval office before, then they would have tried to force on Zelensky into some shit deal, where Russia pretty much gets what it wants territorially, Ukraine gets nothing, No NATO, no reparations and no security guarantees, and when Ukraine refused that, it would've been "Zelensky doesnt want peace, we're cutting military aid".

Whatever path or option Zelensky had taken, all roads would have lead to Trump cutting off aid and trying to help Putin.

Yeah, I need to hide this thread.

 

[peterward]

Yeah, I need to hide this thread.

Yes maybe best you do that.

I have family in Ukraine, my wife is permanently cut off from mother, her city destroyed, she cries almost daily that she can never return, with fellow citizens thrown in bin bags in mass graves, the city of Mariupol is in ruins.

Thats not your fault, its Putins, who is commiting genocide. Rape, murder, child abduction, erasing all forms of Ukrainian literature, history, language.

Its the nearest thing to what Hitler did 80 years ago.

and yet your President, has sided with the genocidal fascist, has broken this rightly indicted war criminal out of isolation, is normalising relations, is swallowinmg his disinformation and engaging in victim shaming, blaming the brave and courageous leader of the people being murdered in their homes, on their land.
And now he's cut off the means to defend themselves against the Russian genocidal fascists, that he so openly supports.

Many more will die because of the absolute f**king moron, criminal, vile piece of shit you call your president and his VP lapdog.

He is disgrace of a human being and Americans should hang their heads in shame at what your great nation has become and now embraces as new normal.

Its a long way from when you called "Article 5" and we and others ran to your side after the horrific attacks on the world trade centre.

Could you imagine if our deputy PM, had chimed in and accused George W Bush, showing foreign heads of state around the ruins & mass deaths at ground zero, as "engaging in propaganda tours"?

 

[Seagull58]

Is Ukraine in NATO?

You know Ukraine is not in NATO What is your point?

 

[Seagull58]

It’s important to remember that the mineral deal with the U.S. was Zelenskyy’s idea

It’s also important to understand that after initial dispute the financial terms of the mineral deal have provisionally been agreed by both sides.

The stalling point is Military and U.S. provision of security for Ukraine

I don’t understand all the talk on here of America robbing Ukraine

Because Trump is NOT offering a security guarantee so, if the deal was signed now what would Zelensky be getting in return?

 

[lasvegan]

I understand your anger, but my president has never sided with a genocidal fascist. He wants to end the killing. Don't you? Do you have a solution?

 

[peterward]

I understand your anger, but my president has never sided with a genocidal fascist. He wants to end the killing. Don't you? Do you have a solution?

Wake up. This is real not a game.
He's adding to the killing by removing the means for Ukrianains to defend themselves.

He is siding with the genocidal fascist. He's restored diplomatic relations, already discussed economic cooperation, voted with Russia, North Korea at UN and against all normal allies, offered Russia to keep all territory and this all before anyone has sat at a negotiating table.... Russia said today "US (Trumps) vision aligns with ours".

The plan is to give Putin what he wants, Trumps paroting Putins talking points, and then trying to arm twist and force the victim into capitulation, without any security that Putin won't do it all again in 2 years as he has every single time.

Do you realise just how many people have been murdered and raped in Ukraine by Putins troops?

And yet he's cut Ukraine out of talks, cut off their ability to defend themselves, called Zelensky a dcitator, accused him of starting war, against the murdering fascists that actually did.

If you think Trump isn't totally pro Russian you really need your head tested. He's got some weird fetish like obsession with Putin..... Putin is feeding him bullshit, massaging his ego and playing him like a fiddle while both real allies and Putins victims are suffering and being murdered.

The shooting stopping is not peace. And there will never be peace when Putin can and will return to destroy and murder again at time of his choosing if no proper security guarantees. (As he has done EVERY time).

America could have been tough on Putin. They have been the gift that keeps on giving. Trump is a dispicable human being, a compulsuve liar and a national security risk.

 

[Rdodge30]

Because Trump is NOT offering a security guarantee so, if the deal was signed now what would Zelensky be getting in return?

The financial settlement already agreed, the fund for rebuilding Ukraine

If the minerals belong to the U.S. I would be fairly certain that the U.S. will protect their financial assets but I don’t know what that would look like in terms of military