[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

SouthSaxon · 2025-02-24T21:51:18+0000

Eric the meek said:
I take your point, and Triggaaar's point about a solid defeat. I agree about the need for that.

But we need to avoid Russians being bitter and revanchist after Ukraine wins the war. That's why Zelensky wants a 'just and lasting peace'.

We, the west, don't just need to win the war. We also need to win the peace. Otherwise they will be back again. And Ukraine, and other neighbours of Russia will be forever living in fear of invasion.

I think this can only happen with Putin out of the picture. He’s been bitter and revanchist the whole time, that ain’t gonna change now.

It’s one reason why having Russia collapse politically and/or economically, rather than just pushing them back militarily, might be the best outcome

Seasider78 · 2025-02-24T21:53:31+0000

Bold Seagull said:
Still struggling to comprehend the US being an ally of Russia.

That’s happening before our eyes. The US vetoing a UN resolution to condemn the Russian invasion is a huge moment in history.

Make America Great Again by siding with a nation with no democracy that has invaded another nation. Just what the actual f***!!

This is what will undo trump in America its no coincidence Macron cornering trump on Russia being the aggressor who pays for the war, the UN vote and the incoming German chancellor referring to Russian equivalent election interference from Washington on the same day. Europe is aligned with how to paint Trump as a Russian asset and enemy of the US allies and Starmer will be heading over with the same brief later this week.

What’s astonishing is the absolute radio silence from senior democrats in the US, perhaps they are trying to avoid this becoming about party politics and instead want to see Trump continue to unravel on the world stage.

GT49er · 2025-02-24T21:54:18+0000

Triggaaar said:
Macron's reply is confusing. He doesn't say 'No, it's not a loan, it's aid', he's says something about 60% and then something about loans, it's not very clear.

60% comes from Europe - more than from the USA. Not a loan, unlike the USA.

Eric the meek · 2025-02-24T21:54:22+0000

raymondo said:
I agree, but I'm at a loss as to how we, the West, can win the peace. A new enlightened leader of Russia might have a chance over time....from within, but personally I'm extremely pessimistic.
Europe and Russia's other neighbors need to make themselves strong.

Indeed. I don't have a solution or a way we can persuade them. Perhaps I should have said that earlier.

I watched question time about Ukraine a few days ago. One Ukrainian in the audience said that Russia has been killing Ukrainians for centuries.
I guess you will know this already.

Peace through strength is the way for a united Europe to emerge. A bigger, stronger, EU, more Nato, or Nato replacement. Any Russian hybrid stuff or false flags should be jumped on with further sanctions.

Triggaaar · 2025-02-24T21:57:02+0000

Seasider78 said:
As I heard it he said 60% was straight up aid the rest loans but not loans they are expecting Ukraine to pay loans that would be repaid through held Russian assets as part of the broader negotiations with Putin.

GT49er said:
60% comes from Europe - more than from the USA. Not a loan, unlike the USA.

Hence my confusion.

GT49er · 2025-02-24T21:57:29+0000

Triggaaar said:
I'm not sure Russia believes they're entitled to a veto, they just want to get whatever they can. They make many claims undermining Ukraine, NATO, Europe, but it doesn't mean they believe them.

.....and Trump doesn't? And the tooth fairy really exists? Trump's chum Musk wants him to get a lot of it too - lithium good for Teslas.

GoldstoneVintage · 2025-02-24T21:58:07+0000

PS:
What do we mean by 'Russian asset'?
The word asset means something useful. So when we use this term it simply means that Trump is useful to Russia. This is undeniable fact, whether he was actively recruited or not. For whatever reason, Trump sees his duty as furthering Russia's agenda. Amazing when you think his formative years and young adulthood were spent during the Cold War and intense American Russophobia.

Sorry to keep harping on about this!

Triggaaar · 2025-02-24T21:59:43+0000

GT49er said:
.....and Trump doesn't? And the tooth fairy really exists?

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Eric the meek · 2025-02-24T22:00:14+0000

SouthSaxon said:
I think this can only happen with Putin out of the picture. He’s been bitter and revanchist the whole time, that ain’t gonna change now.

It’s one reason why having Russia collapse politically and/or economically, rather than just pushing them back militarily, might be the best outcome

Absolutely.

It has been discussed on here at length, but while Putin must of course be gone, there is no guarantee that Putin v2.0 will be any better.

While that plays itself out, it is critical that Trump does not lift the sanctions.

Bodian · 2025-02-24T22:01:23+0000

Seasider78 said:
This is what will undo trump in America its no coincidence Macron cornering trump on Russia being the aggressor who pays for the war, the UN vote and the incoming German chancellor referring to Russian equivalent election interference from Washington on the same day. Europe is aligned with how to paint Trump as a Russian asset and enemy of the US allies and Starmer will be heading over with the same brief later this week.

What’s astonishing is the absolute radio silence from senior democrats in the US, perhaps they are trying to avoid this becoming about party politics and instead want to see Trump continue to unravel on the world stage.

He's building more links with Russia - below.

GT49er said:
.....and Trump doesn't? And the tooth fairy really exists? Trump's chum Musk wants him to get a lot of it too - lithium good for Teslas.

He's in it for profit from both sides in the war. Just opportunistic money-making.

UN general assembly backs resolution condemning Russia for Ukraine war

US, Russia, Belarus and North Korea vote against resolution as 93 countries vote in favor, spurning rival US resolution

www.theguardian.com

SouthSaxon · 2025-02-24T22:02:09+0000

Seasider78 said:
This is what will undo trump in America its no coincidence Macron cornering trump on Russia being the aggressor who pays for the war, the UN vote and the incoming German chancellor referring to Russian equivalent election interference from Washington on the same day. Europe is aligned with how to paint Trump as a Russian asset and enemy of the US allies and Starmer will be heading over with the same brief later this week.

What’s astonishing is the absolute radio silence from senior democrats in the US, perhaps they are trying to avoid this becoming about party politics and instead want to see Trump continue to unravel on the world stage.

I really hope they get Macron on the phone for a debrief before Starmer heads out there. He’s been saying the right things, but repeated refusals by ministers today of opportunities to correct his lies is nagging at me. Are they too nervous about offending him?

pocketseagull · 2025-02-24T22:03:07+0000

Seasider78 said:
This is what will undo trump in America

The Ukraine war is a bit of an irrelevance even amongst the politically switched on American people I know. Tbf the domestic situation is a bigger concern for them right now.

Bodian · 2025-02-24T22:06:40+0000

pocketseagull said:
The Ukraine war is a bit of an irrelevance even amongst the politically switched on American people I know. Tbf the domestic situation is a bigger concern for them right now.

Ukraine war might be. But siding with Russia over anything is bound to upset many more Americans than just Democrats.

GT49er · 2025-02-24T22:07:23+0000

Triggaaar said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at?

See #Bodian's reply below.

beorhthelm · 2025-02-24T22:09:47+0000

Seasider78 said:
This is what will undo trump in America its no coincidence Macron cornering trump on Russia being the aggressor who pays for the war, the UN vote and the incoming German chancellor referring to Russian equivalent election interference from Washington on the same day. Europe is aligned with how to paint Trump as a Russian asset and enemy of the US allies and Starmer will be heading over with the same brief later this week.

What’s astonishing is the absolute radio silence from senior democrats in the US, perhaps they are trying to avoid this becoming about party politics and instead want to see Trump continue to unravel on the world stage.

there's a proverb, dont interfere with your enemy while they are making a mistake.

Seagull58 · 2025-02-24T22:15:57+0000

GoldstoneVintage said:
Despite the lack of a smoking gun, there is a shed load of circumstantial evidence.

Besides, here's my logic:

Did he travel to Russia in 1987 as a prominent US businessman? Yes.

At this time was it standard practice for KGB to get involved and assess the likelihood of him being useful to them? Yes.

Does Trump have the type of personality that would be susceptible to KGB active measures? Yes.

Has he personally benefitted from his association with Russian businessmen over the decades? Yes.

We're some of these Russian businessmen connected to the KGB? Yes.

Were some of these deals 'sweetheart deals' where despite Trump making millions, it's hard to see what the other (Russian) party was gaining? Yes.

Did Russia launch an unprecedented interference campaign to have him elected? Yes (Twice).

Did they ever interfere to this extent before in US elections? No.

Has Trump, in his capacity as president, ever spoken or enacted policy in support of Russia even to the point of undermining his own country?

There is more, but need I say more?

I want to see the "golden showers" tape recorded in a Moscow Hotel.

Eric the meek · 2025-02-24T22:17:15+0000

beorhthelm said:
there's a proverb, dont interfere with your enemy while they are making a mistake.

I'll bet it's a Chinese proverb.

BN41Albion · 2025-02-24T22:21:29+0000

A1X said:

f*** you trump you f***ing arsewipe. I really hope Starmer acts in the same way when he arrives. I think he will

maffew · 2025-02-24T22:21:59+0000

Eric the meek said:
Do the Americans have the equivalent of the Conservative party's 1922 Committee, who can ditch a useless Prime Minister, like Liz Truss?

They must have a mechanism to ease a President out of office and into the Shady Pines Rest Home, surely?

The 25th amendment. Stuck with Vance then though

Bold Seagull said:
Still struggling to comprehend the US being an ally of Russia.

That’s happening before our eyes. The US vetoing a UN resolution to condemn the Russian invasion is a huge moment in history.

Make America Great Again by siding with a nation with no democracy that has invaded another nation. Just what the actual f***!!

I don't think they vetod it. They joined Russia and voted against it. They had to veto their own resolution because they didn't like the edits

Binney on acid · 2025-02-24T22:23:35+0000

Peace with Russia ? With the exception of Gorbachev's tenure, it's an abstract concept. Such is the Russian psyche.

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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

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