[TV] UKIP: The First 100 days. Channel 4 - 9:00PM

[jakarta]

But that's not the point: you said that no major party had advocated EU withdrawal and one quite explicitly did



But that's a bit of a false comparison: UKIP's beef with the EU is that it costs the UK dear and we have to abide by EU rules: the implication being that the EU will do neither. Both Norway and Switzerland contribute to the EU (Norway pays more per head than we do, I believe) and both abide by the same EU regulations that we do.

It may well be nonsense that the EU would shut up shop if we withdrew but to use Norway and Switzerland as examples is equally nonsensical

Neither Norway nor Switzerland have unimpeded movement of EU citizens into their countries so they do NOT 'abide by the same EU Regulations that we do'.

 

[Gwylan]

Neither Norway nor Switzerland have unimpeded movement of EU citizens into their countries so they do NOT 'abide by the same EU Regulations that we do'.

In February 2014, the Swiss voted in a referendum to introduce quotas for all migrants in Switzerland. Such a quota system would, if implemented, violate the agreement between Switzerland and the European Union on the free movement of persons,

 

[cunning fergus]

Then UKIP are hypocrites for even fielding candidates in European Elections.

By all means field Westminster candidates and seek a lawful EU exit if they wish. BUT, to seek membership of an organisation (The European Parliament) they do not recognise as having a legitimate right to exist strikes me as hypocritical as a member of the Labour party joining the Conservatives for the sole pupose of smearing the Conservative candidate come election time. Or a Brighton fan sacrificing his season ticket, and going to Selhurst Park, for the sole purpose of giving Crystal Palace a bad name.

Maybe Farage sees himself as an 'agent provocateur', but the reality is he is just guilty of democratic vandalism. ( Vandal = " a person who deliberately destroys or damages property belonging to others. " )

"Democratic vandalism" and hypocrisy is some accusation make against UKIP given how the EU and UK paries have treated referendums concerning EU treaties, not least the referendums on the EU constitution which came back as the Lisbon Treaty.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4592243.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4601439.stm

Closer to home on pages 83/84 of the 2005 Labour Manifesto, they made the following pledge:

The EU now has 25 members and will continue to expand.The new Constitutional Treaty ensures the new Europe can work effectively, and that Britain keeps control of key national interests like foreign pol- icy, taxation, social security and defence. The Treaty sets out what the EU can do and what it cannot. It strengthens the voice of national parliaments and governments in EU affairs. It is a good treaty for Britain and for the new Europe. We will put it to the British people in a referendum and campaign whole-heartedly for a ‘Yes’ vote to keep Britain a leading nation in Europe.

Did they honour this pledge to the electorate or did they vandalise it like the hypocrites they are.

To be fair given your other posts you may be young, so consider this a helpful guide to the past.

 

[cunning fergus]

In February 2014, the Swiss voted in a referendum to introduce quotas for all migrants in Switzerland. Such a quota system would, if implemented, violate the agreement between Switzerland and the European Union on the free movement of persons,

A couple of weeks ago the Greeks voted in a Government that pledged to change the crippling austerity constraints imposed on it by unelected EU and global institutions..........this democracy thing is something of a sticking point for the EU isn't it?

 

[cunning fergus]

As I wasn't able to vote in that election it would have been hard to voice my opinion at the ballot box. Since 1988 ( when I could first vote ) not a single one of the main parties has allowed me a vote of the changing EU. So until this up and coming election I've gone 27 years without a proper say on the subject. How democratic .... not. Even now Milliband doesn;t want me to have a say.

Indeed, but don't forget all the major parties in the past have offered referendums, so all have reneged on those pledges.

If that is what you want politically, given how your interests have been ignored, I am trying to think of which political party you can vote for which you could TRUST would deliver a referendum.

It's a poser isn't it?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Indeed, but don't forget all the major parties in the past have offered referendums, so all have reneged on those pledges.

If that is what you want politically, given how your interests have been ignored, I am trying to think of which political party you can vote for which you could TRUST would deliver a referendum.

It's a poser isn't it?

In a way, sadly, it's UKIP. I don't trust the Tories to deliver unless the pressure is kept up and of course they actually have to win. Ironically one of my local Tory councillors was around at the weekend knocking on doors. 'How will you be voting in the GE Mr Westdene ?', 'Well, probably UKIP.', 'You know that means a Labour win don't you ?', 'I'll take my chances thank you.'

The Tories are shite scared of UKIP !

 

[jakarta]

In February 2014, the Swiss voted in a referendum to introduce quotas for all migrants in Switzerland. Such a quota system would, if implemented, violate the agreement between Switzerland and the European Union on the free movement of persons,

So you agree they do NOT allow unimpeded movement of labour as of now.

And what has the EU done about this demonstration of democracy - I hope you note this decision was a result of a vote?

F**k all because the Swiss Economy is not on its arse unlike the EU and nonsensical to think it would do so in the case of the UK doing the same.

 

[Soulman]

More waste.
£1.5million on a lift to nowhere... EU waste sinks to a new level
FRESH anger over Brussels waste was sparked yesterday after £1.5million of EU funds were squandered in Italy building a mountainside lift, despite authorities not having the cash to operate it.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...s-wasted-on-mountain-lift-that-remains-closed

 

[pastafarian]

Switzerland currently allows complete freedom of movement of all citizens in The EEA except Croatians,Bulgarians and Romanians.

The Swiss have not yet implemented laws following their referendum,they have until Feb 2017 to do so under their constitution.

The EU has punished The Swiss since the referendum with rule changes on the Erasmus student programme and has frozen negotiations on a joint EU/Swiss electricity market.

The Swiss have accused the EU of acting like a dictatorship.


hope this helps

 

[pastafarian]

Back to the thread - They are far-right, when you consider their policies are generally nationalist/xenophobic/authoritarian.

What we have learned through history and global politics is that the risks of a far-right government include the oppression of opposition supporters and journalists, censorship of free speech, propaganda, bribery and so on. From Zimbabwe, to Turkey, these governments often stay as long as they like.

It really was a simple question.But you have failed again to answer what rule changes UkIP would implement that would allow them to stay in power for ever.

Oppression,bribery and censorship are not rule changes

 

[Deleted member 22389]

As if the EU isn't in enough mess, he advises other countries to join
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tic-backed-airstrikes-country-Kosovo-War.html

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

This is all very well, however you have not provided any explaination why people vote Sinn Fein? I note you give the party "credit" which is interesting given your contempt for UKIP, however that may say more about your political outlook than mine.

The basic tenant that binds all the parties, including Sinn Fein, to the Good Friday agreement is this (f*** sake why do I have to repeat myself?):

"The agreement reached was that Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise. Should that happen, then the British and Irish governments are under "a binding obligation" to implement that choice. "

That's exactly what I stated in my previous post. It is up to the electorate of the Republic and the 6 Counties to decide who they want in charge, and if they choose Sinn Fein, then (just as the Greeks have done with Syriza), they are grown up enough to deal with it.

To paraphrase - if they want 'out' let them go. The agreement DOES NOT specify that NI will join the Republic - I cannot over emphasize this, it DOES NOT say that, it just specifies they will leave the UK. It implicitly allows for an independant state, seperate from both the UK and The Irish Republic. It also allows for the fact that, over time, there may come a point where even Nationalists might actually change their minds and see that becoming a Republic is what they want. I know that might astonish you, but people can actually change their minds, over a period of time.

There still seems to be a groundswell in this Country that think that the Irish are either too stupid, or too irresponsible, to make their own decisions.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Nonsense. France and Germany (and anybody else who wants to) can stay in the EU. An EU with Britain out does not mean the end of the EU, just that we wouldn't be part of it any more. And I don't think there's much danger of us starting another war with Germany, or them with us.

You have NOT read or understood my post at all. Try reading it again, CAREFULLY.

I am talking about FRANCE and GERMANY starting another war , WITH EACH OTHER. If the EU were to disintergrate it could well happen. To say otherwise is to ignore pretty much all of 20th Century European History.

No-one expected Yugoslavia to implode the way it did, once the unifying force of General Tito and the Warsaw pact collapsed, BUT IT DID. Ditto the Soviet Union, now we have Ukraine and the Russian Federation on opposite sides of a very acromonious conflict.

If that happens, UK will be affected, EVEN if we choose neutrality.

The EU is a 'marriage'. Parties like UKIP are 'the back door man' trying to precipitate a divorce.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Sorry...are you saying that without the EU, that modern democratic Germany and modern democratic France can't be trusted not to go to war with each other? Also I'm a little confused as to why you even bring up the option of no EU at all. UKIP want us out of the EU (I agree with them although am not nor will ever be a UKIP voter) and thereafter whatever the EU decide to do isn't our concern. I really don't care.

Look, they did it in 1914, and they did it in 1939. If you don't think there are ultra far-right nationalists in both countries, then fine, but let's just not get too complacent here.

Have you heard of Pegida? If not, you need to take a look at what they are espousing.

Like I have said, the EU exists to ensure Union, in the PUREST sense of the word, Marriage = A Union. That is why I liken the EU to a marriage.

In a marriage it is necessary to compromise.

OK, you don't want a 'menage a trois', I get that. You want Britain to be the sad single person who stays in on a Saturday night, I get that, but there are also some in this Country who want a social life.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You have NOT read or understood my post at all. Try reading it again, CAREFULLY.

I am talking about FRANCE and GERMANY starting another war , WITH EACH OTHER. If the EU were to disintergrate it could well happen. To say otherwise is to ignore pretty much all of 20th Century European History.

If that happens, UK will be affected, EVEN if we choose neutrality.

Highly unlikely given both are members of Nato.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

A couple of weeks ago the Greeks voted in a Government that pledged to change the crippling austerity constraints imposed on it by unelected EU and global institutions..........this democracy thing is something of a sticking point for the EU isn't it?

Hmmmm, if you borrow more than you can afford to pay back, and then welch on the repayment, don't be surprised if the Court baliffs come a'knocking.

The problem with Greece is they are addicted to a lifestyle they can't pay for. They think they can have 'something for nothing', specifcally an unlimited line of credit when their credit rating is nosediving pronto, and they've got nothing to offer as security. Would you give a recovering alchoholic a bottle of Vodka, knowing that it might tip him over the edge, or would you force him to go 'cold turkey'.

Greece has to face up to it's problems, it can't just sweep it under the carpet and pretend it wil go away. The first thing they've got to do is start paying their taxes, instead of funding their public services by flashing the European Bank Credit card, because the European Bank are taking the credit card away and closing the account.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Highly unlikely given both are members of Nato.

Both France and Germany were part of the League of Nations, that didn't stop them.

If the League of Nations can fail, so can NATO. They are equivalent entities.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Both France and Germany were part of the League of Nations, that didn't stop them.

If the League of Nations can fail, so can NATO. They are equivalent entities.

No they're not. The League of Nations was the forerunner of the UN - effectively a talking shop. NATO is a military alliance where members promise to come to the aid of other members if they are attacked.

 

[Buzzer]

Both France and Germany were part of the League of Nations, that didn't stop them.

If the League of Nations can fail, so can NATO. They are equivalent entities.

Uh-huh. The UN is analogous to the League of Nations. NATO is analogous to the pre-war Triple Alliance or the Axis. Anyway if you don't think being equal members of NATO would stop Germany invading France then why would membership of the EU stop them?

Oh - and your analogies are worse than your doom-mongering!

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

No they're not. The League of Nations was the forerunner of the UN - effectively a talking shop. NATO is a military alliance where members promise to come to the aid of other members if they are attacked.

So what, De Gaul withdrew France from the NATO military alliance in 1963, proving that the military alliance is just as fragile as a political one. Both can be destabilised by politicians wishing to do so.

By fooling about in the European Parliament, accusing it of being corrupt and not having an elected mandate Farage is coming across as a bit rich when he is seeking to take power in a Westminster Parliament that is arguably just as bad ( MP's expenses, Blair sexing up weapons of mass destruction, Corporate lobbying, ex Ministers taking on lucrative directorships, Political patronage in the House of Lords, an endless list of broken electoral promises, etc ).

Does Farage promise to clean up Westminster once he's got us out of Europe, because I've not heard him saying so?

Once out of Europe, does he think he will be able to persuade the very people he's insulted in Strasbourg to want to talk to him, or will remaining MEP's just tell him to 'get lost'?

Will Farage be able to put forward the interests of British business to a Parliament whose legitimacy he questions. How will Strasbourg react? It will be pretty p***d off, you can be sure of that. Britain will have to do business with Europe so it wil have to follow where Strasbourg lead. An endless round of renegotiations, seperate regulations for new products or services, the additional buearocracy British exporters will have to go through will cost them dear, and make their products less competitive.

As for those who say we should align ourselves with NAFTA, all very well but the legislative requirements in US and EU markets are very different. Businesses who attempt to comply with both will again be hit in the pocket. Thats why EU standards that harmonise products and services help, both the vendor and the customer. That's true if we are buying Trains from Germany, selling Medical Scanners to Spain, or looking for inward investment ( BMW building Minis at Cowley , EDF building new Power Stations, Bayer manufacturing pharmaceuticals and having their UK head office a stones throw from my house ). If EU companies suddenly start to look at other member states instead of the UK, where does that leave UK employment, or are we still going to rely on our services sector?

Too many imponderables to risk an 'out' vote for me.