Wolves in for Ashley Barnes

[glasfryn]

I think the point many are missing here is that Barnes has not been played in the out and out striker roll, he helps out in midfield and the number of times I hear on the commentary Barnes heads out of defence, he is adaptable (as to a point was Murray) and they both score(d) goals and goals win matches
sell Barnes and it truly would be a sad day he has yet to realise his true and ultimate potential.
As for Murray I for one would not be against him coming back and as I said in another thread I am feeling in a forgiving mood and he is made for an Albion team and any bragging right would be immense bringing him back and playing him properly in the right place in the right team

 

[Seagull73]

I still haven't answered where I believe the squad is underachieving, because I don't think it is. I think he have a fairly decent squad. I don't think Poyet is using it right.

You said it yourself. The players lost form, we went on a bad run.

My definition of a decent manager differs to yours then. IMO before the bad run really got hold, Poyet should have changed the system to suit the players. He didn't. I don't think for one second he didn't because he's not capable. I just think he won't because its his system, and he wont change it for anything.

If as you say the players have to over achive just to fit into the system, then surely its not the right system for the squad, even if you over achive as you put it, for a while and win a few games.

You seem to have identified where it went wrong last season, why didn't Poyet. Or are you saying he knew where it was going wrong, but did nothing to change it?

It all about long term people say. Well how far into the future can we look at the expense of the present?

Are you saying for the system to work everyone has to be on top of their game, over achiving?

If we were over achiving, then how many of that sqaud in your opinion are good enough? I would suggest not many if the run we went on was because we just run out of steam.

So what happens when Poyet has 11 players he's happy with to play the system, and then some get injured?

Would the replacements would have to over-achive to fit in? If so I would suggest we need to replace those who were over achiving last season from the squad, not just the team. Probably set us back a few more years if thats the case.

The day Poyet can adjust his style to the players he has availalbe to him for any one game, will be the day I will listen to people saying he's a great manager. Until the day I will reserve judgment, and have an opinion he is an very good league one manager, and average championship manager.

I competely agree with you the the system does work, IF we had the players to sustain it. But WE DON'T. And we are nowhere near having a squad that could sustain it. I don't think any sqaud outside the top 6 in the premiership does.

So thats the point, until we do, don't use the system, and if we have to, as soon as the over achiving stops and we drop to our true level, adjust the system to match it.

Under the current way of doing things, we will never go up, and we will never be able to afford the players we need, in the numbers we need.

I just hope we don't see a repeat of the two bad runs we had last year, and have a manager sitting on the bench, point blank refusing to adapt to whats going on around him, just because he believes in his system to much.

If he can adapt, sorry not can, if he will adapt, and will mix things up when he needs to, then yer, we may well have an all time great in charge of us.

If he sticks to his principals and fails at the start of the season as we did at the end of last, then I think he'll be gone. But hopefully that won't happen.

Edit: The Squad in League One was underachieving, so I stand corrected.

Oh and by the way, principles that have worked very well so far.

Out of interest, and I almost dread to ask, but when you say 'adpating the style / mixing things up / changing the system to what's going on around him' - can I ask exactly what you mean, and what you think it is that Gus should be doing with the squad / team that will maximise this potential you seem so hell bent on believing we have?

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

And my argument still stands, you cannot win promotion with one system, unless you have a sqaud head and shoulders above the rest of the division, and whilst that was the case in League one, its never going to be the case in the championship.

Unless we buy a squad head and sholuders above the championship, we'll neve achive it, and we can't buy a squad of that quaility without premiership money. So we either go round in circles, or at least have the ability to change things around when we need to. Otherwise we'll for ever be a mid table chamionship side, and I'm fairly certain thats not Tony Blooms target,

Our squad was head and shoulders above everyone elses in League one? Really? Head and shoulders above Southampton? Huddersfield?

I'd argue that whilst we had a decent squad it wasn't head and shoulders above the rest. I don't remember the bookies having us down as favourites at the beginning of the season. Or even second or third. Who are these players that were head and shoulders above league one? Would you include Barnes in that list? If we had a squad of players clearly too good for league one you'd assume that more than just Kishishev would have spent the majority of their career playing at a higher level.

What, in my opinion, actually happened was Poyet got a group of pretty decent league one players to play consistently to a standard well above the level expected. So much so that they went top after 8(?) games and didn't move from there for the rest of the season. It was a remarkable accomplishment achieved by good but not great league one players.

Poyet doesn't need players who are well above championship level to succeed. He needs decent championship level players. Give him that and he won't be far off replicating the 2010/11 season. With the signings he's made this pre-season he's getting closer to that squad.

 

[Muzzy]

Putting an approx price on his head.. At this stage of his career 1.25mill would be my guess! Will Gus sell? I doubt it unless a new contract cannot be sorted.

Sounds like agent interference to me anyway.

 

[Pantani]

Our squad was head and shoulders above everyone elses in League one? Really? Head and shoulders above Southampton? Huddersfield?

I'd argue that whilst we had a decent squad it wasn't head and shoulders above the rest. I don't remember the bookies having us down as favourites at the beginning of the season. Or even second or third. Who are these players that were head and shoulders above league one? Would you include Barnes in that list? If we had a squad of players clearly too good for league one you'd assume that more than just Kishishev would have spent the majority of their career playing at a higher level.

What, in my opinion, actually happened was Poyet got a group of pretty decent league one players to play consistently to a standard well above the level expected. So much so that they went top after 8(?) games and didn't move from there for the rest of the season. It was a remarkable accomplishment achieved by good but not great league one players.

Poyet doesn't need players who are well above championship level to succeed. He needs decent championship level players. Give him that and he won't be far off replicating the 2010/11 season. With the signings he's made this pre-season he's getting closer to that squad.

Superb post.

 

[somerset]

No, they really don't. No idea where you got that from.

From a Wolves Season ticket holder who worked for me until a few weeks ago. He said that the stadium improvements stopped once they accepted relegation in 2012.... after only one of the three stands in plan were completed. The parachute payments would be focussed on players and promotion, he was clear that there wasn't much spare cash, especially without prem money rolling in and supporting big contracts.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Would be a tremendous shame if Ashley Barnes were to be let go without a fight. He's got tremendous potential and has proved he knows where the goal is at this level, unlike some.

 

[les dynam]

I believe, the position we were in, that we should have made the play offs. The run of one win in ten, is in my opinion, what cost us said play off place. I did not say we should or would have won them - you added that bit - but we should have made them after the position we were in.

IMO the reason we didn't is because the team went out in too many games, West Ham being the classic example, and did not have a clue how what they were meant to be doing. West Ham had done there homework, and frankly lets be honest, we were very very lucky the records books were not rewritten that day. 6-0 flattered us. 10-0 would have been a fair result to West Ham Are we 6-0 worse than West Ham. No chance. Game after game at the end of the season, the Poyets plan did not work, but he refused to change it.

Do I think hes a shit manager. Course not, after all he's put us in this position.

Do I think hes the great manager people on here think he is. No. Absolutely not. People say players find there level, well unfortauntely based on last season I think Gus has found his.

Do I think he could go on to be our greatest manager ever. Yes. But he has to be willing to change the system to match the squad he has, and if he does this, then IMO he will go on to great things. If he continues to stick with a system more suited to a squad of Manchester City or United ability, then I think he will struggle and we will struggle, and if people think a great manager is one who sticks to his guns and doesn't get wins , despite having built a squad capable of competeing, then I'll disagree with them. Its as if Poyet is sticking to this system, to show the big clubs what he can do, and how his system works. The fact he doesn't have the players to play it, is probably doing his chances of getting a top job much more harm than good.

Poyet is potentiaily an all time great.

Unfortunetly I worry that that will never be fulfilled, due to his unwillingness to adapt.

But if he sticks to his guns, and we open the season as we ended the last one with one win in ten, then I think he'll be shown the door. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

this is possible the WORST post in the history of the internet. what are you gabbling on about man. so so so wrong on all possible levels.

 

[severnside gull]

the stadium improvements stopped once they accepted relegation in 2012.... after only one of the three stands in plan were completed.

one of the stands that wasn't finished (should have been moved back and elevated) now blocks the view from the stand that was finished so fans get a fantastic view of the roof!

Buckingham Construction's fences (repainted in old gold since they were moved from around the Amex) are still looking good though - you can still make out some of the Albion grafitti through the paint

 

[Mr Burns]

For those who think Barnes is worth £500k, consider that his age, and his stats in his first full championship season are comparable with Jay Rodriguez, who just moved for £7m.

Hans you speak a lot of sense generally, but on this I think you are completely wrong, and that comment is straight out of "championship manager" . Teams buy players and pay what they think a player is worth to them. Just because his stats make good reading, a team will not buy based on stats. Stats may attract attention, but they rarely if ever set a fee.

But anyway, IMO the bottom line is, I think this story is an agent based story, as Barnes contract will be under discussion soon, if its not already, and I think his agent is just "playing the game"... and why not! But I don't see Barnes going anywhere until the end of the season at the earliest.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Hans you speak a lot of sense generally, but on this I think you are completely wrong, and that comment is straight out of "championship manager" . Teams buy players and pay what they think a player is worth to them. Just because his stats make good reading, a team will not buy based on stats. Stats may attract attention, but they rarely if ever set a fee.

But anyway, IMO the bottom line is, I think this story is an agent based story, as Barnes contract will be under discussion soon, if its not already, and I think his agent is just "playing the game"... and why not! But I don't see Barnes going anywhere until the end of the season at the earliest.

I don't disagree with any of that, and I'm NOT suggesting that Barnes is of equal value to Rodriguez. My point was that a lot of our fans hugely undervalue him, and that if the discussion were about a 22 year old striker with a similar record to Barnes, at another Championship club, we'd be expecting to pay FAR more, than £500k.

 

[Paddy B]

From a Wolves Season ticket holder who worked for me until a few weeks ago. He said that the stadium improvements stopped once they accepted relegation in 2012.... after only one of the three stands in plan were completed. The parachute payments would be focussed on players and promotion, he was clear that there wasn't much spare cash, especially without prem money rolling in and supporting big contracts.

"Not much spare cash" and "having serious money issues" are entirely different things. Wolves are a well run solvent club. Unlike Bolton, Birmingham and Blackburn all of whom have serious debt issues.

Therefore if they get £12m for Fletcher there is no reason why they wouldnt last out say £2m on Barnes

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

Hoskins out with broken foot, CMS suffering from groin injury, and we're going to sell Barnes.

This is a non-story.

 

[Mr Burns]

Out of interest, and I almost dread to ask, but when you say 'adpating the style / mixing things up / changing the system to what's going on around him' - can I ask exactly what you mean, and what you think it is that Gus should be doing with the squad / team that will maximise this potential you seem so hell bent on believing we have?

Not really, cause it would take forever to it write down .

But very basically put, I would go more direct. That doesn't mean playing hoof ball in the slightest, but I fail to see the point of having 4 million pound wingers (okay Vicente isnt a million pound but hes better than the other three) and only ever playing one. I fail to see the point of signing CMS for £3m and then not go out and out playing to his strengths. If he deloys CMS in a role that suits him this season, then great I'll stop moaning, but I dont think he can in the current style, so why bother signing him.

I would put a lot more empises on attack, and not worry so much about the defence. Not for one second would I go all Kevin Keegan about it, but when you have 4 wingers who would get into most championship sides, and striker that any championship team would have signed given the chance last summer, then I feel you have to use them, they are the strength of the side.

The fact we with the exception of relagated Doncaster had fewer shots than any other side in the division (even Barnsley FFS) with the attacking options we have, all signed by Poyet, what we witnessed at the end of last season isn't good enough.

If I want to watch the defence play keep ball and knock it around in trangles I'll go and watch a training session. Its boring at best, but when you win you can't argue with it, but go on the 2 shite runs we went on and not change it, then I think fans are more and entitled to question it.

I would like to see us play more direct and hit teams on the break.

Two examples, we beat Chelsea with 2 (or was it 3) well taken break away goals. I want to see more of that. That's not Poyets style, given the choice that ball would have been played out from the back, and an attack built from the back, as we always do. But we struggle to break teams down, so why play like that?

Example two Gillingham last season, They came here expecting to get murdered, we beat them with an Ashley Barnes penatly in extra time. Gillingham were delighted that we knocked it around and built slowly from the back. Direct from a player, they said it gave them chance to get behind the ball and "park the bus", which is how most sides play against us, which is why we had the fewest shots in the division last season bar one.

Teams like nothing more than playing against a side playing too and frow from the keeper and defence, it just makes them very very hard to break down, as was proven last year.

I would like to see us get the balls to the wingers quicker, get the ball to the attackers (yes more than one attacker) quicker, and make teams worry about our pace and our threat instead of giving them time to jog back behind the ball, and crowd us out.

I just fail to see how anyone can call Poyets style exciting, when it produces so little final product.

 

[Mr Burns]

I don't disagree with any of that, and I'm NOT suggesting that Barnes is of equal value to Rodriguez. My point was that a lot of our fans hugely undervalue him, and that if the discussion were about a 22 year old striker with a similar record to Barnes, at another Championship club, we'd be expecting to pay FAR more, than £500k.

I agree we would, but if any player is widely over achiving for us, its Barnes, so you would except someone with his stats to be a far better player than what he actually is. IMO if you was buying Ashley Barnes from a sheet of paper with nothing but stats to make your decission with, he'd be worth 2 or 3 million. If you watched him and brought him for his skill, £500k with one year on his contract wouldn't be cheap IMO. You've only got to look at opinion on here and listen to them at the ground, Barnes isn't the class act people think he is, otherwise there wouldn't be such differing opinion on him. As a person, he's not done anything in the remote to make people dislike him. He hasn't bad mouthed the club, fallen out with anyone, as far as is goes he's the model pro, so why the massive swing in popularity?

Personally at this moment in time, I wouldn't sell him. Purely because he and Toby(who I think is going to surprise a lot of people this season given a chance- Class act) are the only fit strikers. When the "gem" arrives, Hoskins and CMS are back fit, Buckleys available, then Barnes would be surplus and could go IMO.

 

[Mr Burns]

Would be a tremendous shame if Ashley Barnes were to be let go without a fight. He's got tremendous potential and has proved he knows where the goal is at this level, unlike some.

He aint going nowehere. Its all agent talk. New contract on the way etc etc

 

[Finally Falmer]

But we don't need to sell anymore. We are not at Withdean, so they can take their offer and shove it. If they think Jarvis is worth more then £9 Million and Fletcher is worth £12 Million. Wolves really are a bunch of mugs, they didn't really set the Premiership on fire did they?!

Why are they mugs ? They have 2 assets which they "own" - they're entitled to ask for as much as they think they can possibly get for them. Sunderland have already bid £10m for Fletcher, & West Ham have reportedly bid £7m for Jarvis. Surely they'd be mugs if they sold them on the cheap ?

I would doubt Barnes will go to Wolves - but yes every club is a selling club IF the price is right. Barca would sell Messi if they got an offer of £1bn.

 

[albionalex]

Even with 1 year left on his contract £500k is cheap. As he is under 24 we'd be due compensation if he were to leave once his contract ran out and i'd expect to get more than £500k compensation for him.

 

[sir albion]

Putting an approx price on his head.. At this stage of his career 1.25mill would be my guess! Will Gus sell? I doubt it unless a new contract cannot be sorted.

Sounds like agent interference to me anyway.

Many players who score 15 goals in this league go for 2/3 million these days,barnes is at least young and improving.If he went we would have no strikers available

 

[somerset]

Hoskins out with broken foot, CMS suffering from groin injury, and we're going to sell Barnes.

This is a non-story.

Don't forget Buckley out again, Lua lua out, .... attacking options are indeed limited..... Toby should get 90mins tomorrow then??... bet he doesn't though.