[Misc] Will the Unions bring everyone to their knees?

[Guinness Boy]

Mnn ? I was not aware of this as I have them on" Ignore" so have not known or responded to anything they may have posted directly at me. To be honest I'm not too worried by whatever they say, I would only get offended if abuse came from someone I respected. However thanks for stepping in and moderating, I suppose if they have no constructive arguments left they are going to turn to abuse as its all they have left, but, that does the board no favours.

It's a general point.

Adults should be able to debate politics without resorting to using derogatory nicknames.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Mnn ? I was not aware of this as I have them on" Ignore" so have not known or responded to anything they may have posted directly at me. To be honest I'm not too worried by whatever they say, I would only get offended if abuse came from someone I respected. However thanks for stepping in and moderating, I suppose if they have no constructive arguments left they are going to turn to abuse as its all they have left, but, that does the board no favours.

Interestingly, until I just read the quote in your post I wasn't aware either. But now I do know,











I still couldn't give a toss

 

[vegster]

Interestingly, until I just read the quote in your post I wasn't aware either. But now I do know,











I still couldn't give a toss

Its a bit odd that I found myself in the eye of a storm so to speak but I didn't know about it ? looks like I missed all the fun.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Interesting take, or at least *I* thought it is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61857007

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Will the unions bring eveyone to their knees ?

The only reason why people aren't on their knees is because of trade unions. Now - bringing the Tories and the bosses to their knees, I would argue would be a good thing.

'The great only appear great because we are on our knees - let us rise'. Jim Larkin during the Dublin Lockout 1913.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Interesting take, or at least *I* thought it is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61857007

Yeah, I think these 1970s tactics are a little ineffective in the modern world.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Just shows, don’t always listen to economists. Looking up articles in the last hour, some as late as Nov 2021 were stating “Why inflation is in the past”.

The UK …. here’s my summary:

Crippled by the colossal debts of two world wars and not given a nice blank cheque from the Yanks likely Germany to rebuild, the UK was in a relative economic decline. Italy was a country where the southern half was in centuries old poverty, yet they rose and overtook the UK GDP in 1987, celebrating that as Il Sorpasso for a very long time. The UK had been stuck in an eternal impasse of:
Useless senior management.
A lack of investment by major companies.
Intransigent, politicised trade unions, dogmatic working practices such as very rigid job demarkation. Only one person could heat the rivets, another pass them, another fit them. In the 60’s and 70’s we were the strike capital of the world. Nothing to be proud of. Whilst the Germans, Finns, Italians, Japanese and Swedes marched in with superior goods that didn’t rust or break.

It was never a David and Goliath story of 90% left wing workers versus toffs. It’s always been polarised, many working and middle class folk who would never vote Labour. The major reason is possibly taxation. Brits don’t like paying it. Left wingers think only the rich and businesses should pay for a welfare state, teachers pay rises and the NHS. A vast number of the rest look for minimal income tax and national insurance, there’s an age old funny obsession with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer can give them on budget day.

Before you were on nsc, I used to point out using Swedish net pay calculators, that even Swedes earnings say 375,000kr (£30,000) pay a huge proportion of their wages on national and local taxes to finance the welfare state. Almost everyone contributes in a huge way financially, not just industrialists, lawyers and pop stars.

In the UK no one it seems wants to truly head towards your system.

I think people expect too much from economists. I have a degree in it so can see that whilst there are economic relationships, even these change over time. Mostly it is theory. Outcomes are heavily dependent upon assumptions. I think that the work of economists is often used unscrupulously by people looking to advance a particular agenda or by people who think an economist can diagnose much like a doctor. All neatly summed up by the joke about getting five opinions from a room containing four economists.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Will the unions bring eveyone to their knees ?

The only reason why people aren't on their knees is because of trade unions. Now - bringing the Tories and the bosses to their knees, I would argue would be a good thing.

'The great only appear great because we are on our knees - let us rise'. Jim Larkin during the Dublin Lockout 1913.

It is interesting the rhetoric on say strike action disturbing our holidays. Statutory holidays of course being one of the things the TUC first fought for in the early 1900s. Maternity leave, sick pay, rights we clearly take for granted now bought about through collective action of workers in unions that transformed the working landscape from one century to the next.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yeah, I think these 1970s tactics are a little ineffective in the modern world.

I would have thought the Union would have been quite pleased with the amount of publicity they have got, how effectively they've got their message over as to the reasons for the dispute (which wouldn't have been easy given the current Government's huge investment in their publicity machine and supportive media friends). Hundreds of posts on NSC alone discussing various aspects of the dispute, which I assume are repeated across various Social networking platforms.

Sounds like very '21st century tactics' to me

 

[Thunder Bolt]

unless large numbers (which isnt here), management dont know if there'll need to be any compulsory until they go into consultation. the union knows that, its a tactic, can play along knowing they wont get that condition until they get the pay they want, then "assurances" on redunancies will be adequate.

The figures are 2900, and is effectively fire and rehire at £9K less.

Anybody here volunteering to have to work more weekends, for less money (time and a tenth as opposed to time and a third) for £9000 per annum pay cut?

I thought people were up in arms at P&O doing the same thing.

 

[beorhthelm]

The figures are 2900, and is effectively fire and rehire at £9K less.

Anybody here volunteering to have to work more weekends, for less money (time and a tenth as opposed to time and a third) for £9000 per annum pay cut?

I thought people were up in arms at P&O doing the same thing.

you're refering to unverified internet rumours, that obfuscate different grades and working conditions. no one is going to take a 9k pay cut, it would be fire and everyone's gone, so highly dubious. point still stands, that number is a small % of the workforce that could be redeployed, dont know until in consultation.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I would have thought the Union would have been quite pleased with the amount of publicity they have got, how effectively they've got their message over as to the reasons for the dispute (which wouldn't have been easy given the current Government's huge investment in their publicity machine and supportive media friends). Hundreds of posts on NSC alone discussing various aspects of the dispute, which I assume are repeated across various Social networking platforms.

Sounds like very '21st century tactics' to me

Great, we will know by the outcome a year or so down the line I guess. If all they wanted to do was get their message out they could have rather more straightforwardly just used social media to do just that. They wanted to cause the story of inconvenience so if it wasn’t actually that inconvenient because the modern economy has changed then they perhaps need to revisit their old fashioned tactics.

 

[A1X]

Are we on our knees yet?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Are we on our knees yet?

No we are not

 

[rogersix]

Of course it is political. It is all about power and the members of the RMT are lucky in that they at least have a negative power to disrupt. Most people do not even have that

We live in a "devil take the hindmost" society where bankers and CEOs and many others do very well because they hold power. Dont blame others for playing the same game. A decent government would try and create a fairer society not just govern by division creating false enemies like the EU or judges or the ECHR or "lefty" lawyers. In a fairer society people might be willing to mitigate their own power for the sake of everyone else

you come across as some sort of a patriot................. that's a bit dated these days

 

[BLOCK F]

Certainly no Richard Burton or Cliff Morgan when it comes to oratory

Well, some may rate him, but I consider Mark Drakeford a Windbag in the finest tradition of Welsh Windbags.
Perhaps this is who he gets it from.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Down with human rights, down with workers rights, down with freedom to protest, bring it on mouldy ....

On the swing-ometer, we have swung so far left with the unions, it's gone off scale!

As far as retraint is concerned, unfortunately the carry on of Johnson since he took over has signaled anything but 'we are all in it together'. His flagrant disregard of his own Covid rules has triggered what? A change to the rules of parliamentary standards! If we were to rerun Covid with his new standards and process he can say he sought advice and took a view and his decision is final that he has done nothing wrong. These are the new rules. This is symptomatic of the piece and is gravely concerning.

We are clearly therefore not all in it together. Johnson is in it for himself. As is his inner circle. There has been much personal enrichment over Covid contracts and consultancies.

Hopefully we can get Jexit (the removol of Johnson) done at the next GE before the anger spills out across the wider employment sector because I no more like all these strikes than you.

In the meantime, laws will be changed, Union assets will be seized and strikers will be arrested. Make no mistake, this is a sinister government.

And yes, I remember the 70s very well. However I think you're being very unfair on the current RMT and the teaching unions. Their position is a far cry from that of the likes of Scargill, a genuinely frightening man, and some of the other grey faced old communists of the TUC. Back then the unions wanted to run the country (by proxy, using a labour party whose leadership was 'elected' largely by the unions, and using the ludicrous 'block vote'). Labour managed to wrestle itself from the grasp of the unions and militant, first through the courage of Neil Kinnock (expelling arsehols like Hatton) and then through Blair. The RMT is not trying to overthow the government. Their case has been clear.

I am personally comfortably off and it will take some catestropic economic disasters for this to change. I can sit detached and observe the present events. I see restrained unions legally ballot for a legal strike. Incidentally this happens all the time and normally the members vote against a strike - my union must have had 20 votes over the last 30 years and voted for action only 2 or 3 times. I knew nothing about the RMT till I did some research. Like you I assumed they are a load of soppy SWP goons hell bent on revolution. They are not. Nor are the teachers.

If you are disturbed by more and more unions voting for action, look to the cause. Johnson. And don't applaud too soon if he unilateraly bans strikes. That's a tactic of the likes of the communist Chinese. Johnson and Xi Jinping, where the politcal spectrum becomes a circle. Removal of people's rights for the greater good is a bit like ****ing for virginity.

Anyway, as I said, the short term outcome is likely to be something that you'll approve. Just beware the long term consequences....at very least Johnson's chances of winning the next GE will disappear if he starts bullying first the RMT, then teachers, then nurses and doctors.....

Anyway - all the best

I agree with the fact that you remember the 70s well Hazza. The rest we can talk another day on.

In answer to Mouldy Boots, it seems to be having the opposite effect on workers.

[tweet]1539905606429155333[/tweet]

Haha, Katie Price smashes and union searches.

https://trends.google.com/trends/trendingsearches/daily?geo=GB

mouldy, why do you think unions were initially brought into existence?

Because a certain breed of people love to moan until the cows come home?
Roll your sleeves up and get on with the job or do one, my same therory goes out to those who still whinge about Brexit.

 

[Baldseagull]

On the swing-ometer, we have swung so far left with the unions, it's gone off scale!

I agree with the fact that you remember the 70s well Hazza. The rest we can talk another day on.



Haha, Katie Price smashes and union searches.

https://trends.google.com/trends/trendingsearches/daily?geo=GB




Because a certain breed of people love to moan until the cows come home?
Roll your seeves up and get on with the job or do one, my same therory goes out to those who still whinge about Brexit.

That Farage bloke moaned for years didn't he?

 

[Deleted member 2719]

That Farage bloke moaned for years didn't he?

Yes, but he had his finger on the pulse of the nation and nailed their feelings. He doesn't just take in local bubbles such as Brighton and London.

 

[darkwolf666]

And they wonder why the unions kick up and talk about unfairness...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-61917259

49% pay increase for Birmingham Airport chief...