Where do you stand on "Tookie" Williams ?

[Simster]

He killed four people (one white, three Taiwanese). Never admitted his guilt, never showed remorse. The appeals procedure goes through two different ladders of appeal courts, the evidence was overwhelming but he would never face it. He may have changed, but Arnie had no choice but to reject the appeal as there can be no change without remorse. Bit of a shame.

That's because he maintains he wasn't guilty in the first place and that he couldn't apologise for something he didn't do.

I'm against the death penalty, but am even more against politicians stepping in on the rule of law. If the California electorate is stupid enough to insist on the death penalty, then I can't see how you can cherrypick who you apply it to.

 

[enigma]

Given that he showed he had reformed, I think the death penalty was harsh. Im not saying he shouldnt have been in jail for life, but the death penalty is harsh.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I think that the death penalty is a disgusting abuse of human rights by a government and for the United States, a supposed world leader, to use it is shocking. In this case it is even more shocking as they kept him locked up for 24 years before executing him and he had tried to discourage others from entering gangs. However, it does not surprise me as it is the US.

 

[e77]

I am anti death penalty but would still have given him life.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

A final thought: Imagine it was your life that was in the hands of Arnold Schwarzenegger. What a sick, f***ed up world we live in.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

I don't think there was too much Arnie could do. If all the evidence when studied, reviewed and reviewed again pointed to Tookie's guilt, and if the law of California requires an admission of that guilt for clemency to be granted when that admissioin is not forthcoming then I guess the death penalty has to be upheld.

I should point out that I in no way agree with the death penalty.

Also, isn't the idea of prison to rehabilitate? It seems to me that the prison system is completely self-defeating if someone strives to do something to benefit society and turns against their former life only to still be put to death. In what way does that encourage you to 'reform'?

 

[London Irish]

Gangland leader, co-founded the notorious Crips gang in Los Angeles. Died just after 8am our time by lethal injection for the murder of 4, in the late 70's - probably many more that we do not know of .... but since being inside he has worked very hard on an anti-gang campaign, and many would say he has done and was continuing to do good by discouraging others from following the path he led. Receive Noble Peace Prize nominations for his work.

He was a model success story for rehabilitation - and so they kill him

 

[Easy 10]

A final thought: Imagine it was your life that was in the hands of Arnold Schwarzenegger. What a sick, f***ed up world we live in.

You make a VERY good point.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

don't think there was too much Arnie could do. If all the evidence when studied, reviewed and reviewed again pointed to Tookie's guilt, and if the law of California requires an admission of that guilt for clemency to be granted when that admissioin is not forthcoming then I guess the death penalty has to be upheld.

I should point out that I in no way agree with the death penalty.

Also, isn't the idea of prison to rehabilitate? It seems to me that the prison system is completely self-defeating if someone strives to do something to benefit society and turns against their former life only to still be put to death. In what way does that encourage you to 'reform'?

Exactly right about the re-habiliatation issue. This case shows that no matter how far you go to re-habiliatate yourself, nothing will ever be good enough. As for Schwarzenegger, my point is that it's a sick world when an idiot like him can decide whether a man can live or die. But then if Californians want to elect a woman beating, right-wing egomaniac that's what they end up with.

 

[London Calling]

don't think there was too much Arnie could do. If all the evidence when studied, reviewed and reviewed again pointed to Tookie's guilt, and if the law of California requires an admission of that guilt for clemency to be granted when that admissioin is not forthcoming then I guess the death penalty has to be upheld.

I should point out that I in no way agree with the death penalty.

Also, isn't the idea of prison to rehabilitate? It seems to me that the prison system is completely self-defeating if someone strives to do something to benefit society and turns against their former life only to still be put to death. In what way does that encourage you to 'reform'?

Exactly right about the re-habiliatation issue. This case shows that no matter how far you go to re-habiliatate yourself, nothing will ever be good enough. As for Schwarzenegger, my point is that it's a sick world when an idiot like him can decide whether a man can live or die. But then if Californians want to elect a woman beating, right-wing egomaniac that's what they end up with.

How do they expect others to rehabilitate or become more positive if that is the way they will treat punters.

Big error Arnie.

 

[tedebear]

Problem is that there is too much time between sentance and execution - if you commit a crime which holds a sentance of death then it should be exacted swiftly..... all this sitting around means that the accused comes to terms with what they have done and are often rehabilitated - in which case the person executed is far removed from the person who committed the crime!! hence the uproar!!

I hate the death penalty - but if you commit a crime where it exists - on your head it be - literally!!

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Problem is that there is too much time between sentance and execution - if you commit a crime which holds a sentance of death then it should be exacted swiftly..... all this sitting around means that the accused comes to terms with what they have done and are often rehabilitated - in which case the person executed is far removed from the person who committed the crime!! hence the uproar!!

I hate the death penalty - but if you commit a crime where it exists - on your head it be - literally!!

And the death penalty has worked so well as a deterrant in the USA hasn't it.

 

[tedebear]

And the death penalty has worked so well as a deterrant in the USA hasn't it.

thats not the point - you commit the crime knowing the death penalty exists? obviously people think they will get away with it!!

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

thats not the point - you commit the crime knowing the death penalty exists? obviously people think they will get away with it!!

But tedebear in this case we don't know that he DID carry out these crimes. Williams has always denied it. For all we know he was innocent. And just because the law says something is so doesn't make it right.

 

[NMH]

But tedebear in this case we don't know that he DID carry out these crimes. Williams has always denied it. For all we know he was innocent. And just because the law says something is so doesn't make it right.

You could say that about EVERY crime where the person pleads "not guilty".

He was tried and found guilty, he knew details about the killings that ONLY the killer would know. HE WAS THERE when those people were cold-bloodedly murdered - if that is suddenly in some sort of doubt.
The books were co-written, his name was on them, but he had someone else writing them. If you or I write kids books telling them that gang-life is wrong, you can bet your aaaasss we ain't getting no mutha-effing Nobel Peace Prize.
He refused to admit guilt - that suggests something else other than 'he might not be guilty'. He does not ever face remorse, admission, and the validity of his sentance.

He was the leader of the Crips for crying out loud. He was never there to be 'nice'.
I'm not in favour of the death penalty, and when you compare 'tookie' to some less-public name getting 'ceased', he's only getting the publicity because of the high profile he 'earned' by his extreme badness and the bad gang he started.

Incidentally, Manson lives. OJ and 'Barretta' walked. There are many more who get away with murder, than get put down accidentally.

 

[NMH]

Arnold was working on the basis that the original court that convicted tookie Williams got it right. The legal system is tried and tested, and believed to be the best it can be.

If Williams was reformed (as was argued for him), then let him repent for his soul - but he still has to face justice.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
He sent FOUR to their forevers, and his gang, that he led, have done a whole lot more (and they still campaigned for his reprieve).

Sorry, no more tears.

 

[m20gull]

Death penalty is wrong.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

on his face

 

[Gully]

Don't agree with the death penalty, it has no place in a society that wants to call itself civilised. There is a dangerous right wing Christian fundamentalist movement in the States that thinks it is right to fry/gas/hang/shoot their fellow citizens, is it any wonder that the electorate allow its government to get away with things like Guantanamo Bay and flying suspects around to World for torture.

 

[El Presidente]

Would he have died if he was white? There is no evidence that the death penalty works as a deterrent, you only have to compare murders in those states where it takes place and those where it does not.

There are four reasons for an individual sentence to occur

1. The person involved is a menace to society at large and should be kept apart from them

2. As a deterrent to others

3. Vengeance

4. As a penalty

The death sentence falls into category 3 in my view, which is the shakiest of the four justifications.

If killing is wrong, then it is wrong full stop, sanctioning by the state is no better or worse than by a crim.