We have a new Governator here in California,

[alan partridge]

I think I've made my point and Looney seconds it.

I still don't know how to tell if I'm a Redneck.

lol

thanks bare. i almost spat out my tea laughing at that one


you've made your point very poorly (your hitler comparison is bizarre), you've been outargued with well reasoned points. you are seconded by looney. nuff said.

 

[NMH]

It's not that nobody responded, it's just that your head was too far up your ass to notice.

The bloke could have a conversation with himself for all that anyone else's points mattered.

Watch out for injuns there bare !

 

[Bare]

US Seagull

1) Good we agree, except you put conditions on it. That's sorta like saying, "You can speak freely provided.......you pay a tax........provided you dye your hair red.......provided you (whatever) and that's not exceptable. Self defense is instinctive/birthright/inalienable/endowed by our creator, how ever one wants to refer to it. If I go to slap you, your arm automatically goes up to defend against it. That's normal. But if we condition that reflex with, "only if you where a brown and white glove," it restricts your ability to defend. All one needs to do is wait till you take your glove off and you're toast. One of the problems this Country is having with the new Patriot act is rights are now conditioned and therefore meaningless.

2) Someone accused me of emulating Hitler. So we agree he was out of order with that remark. But the point does demonstrate dramatically the point in #1. A conditioned, defenseless individual is toast, 6 million times or more.

3) I've always been amazed with point 3. My Aunti lived in Miami Florida and she lived by that theory for years. (Uncle died.) The thieves would come in to house at night and take what they could. Guess what? they just kept coming back and coming back till it was ALL gone. She finally moved with nothing.

Furhtermore, I've heard a lot about this phenomenon about the thief taking the gun away from me and using it on me. I've asked a lot of people if they know of a situation where that is true. Nobody that I've asked or anybody that they know has ever heard of any such thing. One fellow said he researched it and found a couple situations where a drunk/junkie had there gun taken away by the police like that, but nothing else. We're still searching for the reality of that. In the mean time, if you were a thief and was facing the business end of a .44magnum, would you try to take it away? I don't think so!

 

[US Seagull]

US Seagull

1) Good we agree, except you put conditions on it. That's sorta like saying, "You can speak freely provided.......you pay a tax........provided you dye your hair red.......provided you (whatever) and that's not exceptable. Self defense is instinctive/birthright/inalienable/endowed by our creator, how ever one wants to refer to it. If I go to slap you, your arm automatically goes up to defend against it. That's normal. But if we condition that reflex with, "only if you where a brown and white glove," it restricts your ability to defend. All one needs to do is wait till you take your glove off and you're toast. One of the problems this Country is having with the new Patriot act is rights are now conditioned and therefore meaningless.

I'm sorry but nothing you say here really has anything to do with the point that was being discussed. So if you try to slap me I should be allowed to shoot you? There is such a thing as excessive force and such a reaction from me to you attempt to slap me would justly land be in jail. Clearly that is nonsense. The question is whether you should be allowed to own guns and my opinion is that because of the danger caused by the proliferation of guns is not worth the questionable value as a weapon of self defence for law abiding citizens. The question of being able to defend yourself is a whole separate question and the right to defend yourself does entitle you to act as judge, jury and executioner.
Also you mentioned the right to NOT own a gun, in some cities you don't have that right. IIRC a town call Virgin (I kid you not), Utah passed a city ordinance requiring all households to keep a gun and live ammo. I recently read about another city doing the same (I forget the name of that city).

 

[Bare]

In the same light , you think if a woman is about to be raped she should just lay back and enjoy it. If a baby is kidnapped, forget about and just have another. Clearly, THAT is nonsense. You are entitled to be a victim if you want but the rest of us choose to stand on our own two feet.

Excessive force? I shoot and miss a criminal about to kill me and that is exscessive force? I say that is survival in it's finest. You need to get your priorities straighten out. In this country, self-defense is a viable defense and perfectly acceptable. And we don't need a Judge, Jury or and Executioner to do so.

Have a tall one on me.

 

[Bare]

I keep hearing about crime statistics here and how bad it is here in the US and how not so bad it is in the UK. This argument is used to justify not having guns. I have been conducting some research on the subject although I'm not a good researcher. I found this websight and I'll agree it is probably not the best, but here it is;

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb502.pdf

On page eight you find a chart comparing crime stats. On the top you'll find the UKs stats on a steady increase and on the bottom you'll see the USA stats on a steady decline. I have also read elsewhere our Aussie friends are complaining about an increase in crime since they instituted gun-control in their country.

On page 10 you can observe that the UKs stats are up by a large margin and the US crime stats are down moderately.

All in all, I think this argument about how low the crime stats are in the UK and how high the crime stats are in the US is bogus.

I welcome anyone who can research better than I to offer a better review so that we all can observe.

 

[US Seagull]

In the same light , you think if a woman is about to be raped she should just lay back and enjoy it. If a baby is kidnapped, forget about and just have another.

That is an appaling misrepresentation of my position. How dare you suggest such a thing.
There is no point carrying on this thread because a) this is a football messageboard, b) everybody else has long since lost interest and c) as somebody pointed out earlier, you are a twat

 

[alan partridge]

I keep hearing about crime statistics here and how bad it is here in the US and how not so bad it is in the UK. This argument is used to justify not having guns. I have been conducting some research on the subject although I'm not a good researcher. I found this websight and I'll agree it is probably not the best, but here it is;

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb502.pdf

On page eight you find a chart comparing crime stats. On the top you'll find the UKs stats on a steady increase and on the bottom you'll see the USA stats on a steady decline. I have also read elsewhere our Aussie friends are complaining about an increase in crime since they instituted gun-control in their country.

On page 10 you can observe that the UKs stats are up by a large margin and the US crime stats are down moderately.

All in all, I think this argument about how low the crime stats are in the UK and how high the crime stats are in the US is bogus.

I welcome anyone who can research better than I to offer a better review so that we all can observe.

bare, i lost interest in your points a long time ago as you pay little attention to what other people have to say, but i will say this

YOUR SPELLING IS APPALLING! sort it out!

websight!? websight!?

what's that? something spider's have?

now get yourself onto another thread and tell us how you think mcghee is going to work out

 

[Bare]

Really?!?? Now your saying a woman has the right to defend herself? A Mom has a right ot defend her child? Make up your mind! Of course, the trick with you is the conditions you put on it.

We're not talking about a couple of drunks playing patty-cake in a bar/pub. Many women in this country carry guns just for that purpose. And I wouldn't deny them their right to defend themselves. Rape is a violent, brutal act of control. I wouldn't wish that on any woman.

What points have I not addressed? And alan partridge, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Your spelling is worse. Is this your best argument?

When the inventors of the internet ploted their invention on a map, they thought it looked like a spider web. Hence 'www' now means, 'World Wide Web." Your history lesson for the day.
And the sight locations are called 'websights.'

This is one area I find you people lack knowledge in and that's history. You're willing to believe any BS that comes along and the facts be damned.

 

[bhaexpress]

My wife has a gun ! I had to settle for an air taser

 

[Simster]

Cutting the crap Bare, your homical rate is ten times what ours is.

You have justified the right to bear arms because an old man in St Louis was able to shoot a burgular.

Is that really the best you can do?

 

[Dandyman]

I keep hearing about crime statistics here and how bad it is here in the US and how not so bad it is in the UK. This argument is used to justify not having guns. I have been conducting some research on the subject although I'm not a good researcher. I found this websight and I'll agree it is probably not the best, but here it is;

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb502.pdf

On page eight you find a chart comparing crime stats. On the top you'll find the UKs stats on a steady increase and on the bottom you'll see the USA stats on a steady decline. I have also read elsewhere our Aussie friends are complaining about an increase in crime since they instituted gun-control in their country.

On page 10 you can observe that the UKs stats are up by a large margin and the US crime stats are down moderately.

All in all, I think this argument about how low the crime stats are in the UK and how high the crime stats are in the US is bogus.

I welcome anyone who can research better than I to offer a better review so that we all can observe.

Bare, if you've actually read the statistics you'll see that it says the murder rate is, in fact, significantly higher in the US than in EU member countries.

 

[Simster]

Yeah thanks for that Bare.

Just been looking on page 4 - it says in *your* source that *you* are using to justify *your* stance that London has 2.38 murders per 100,000 compared to New York with 8.77.

And on page 11, it says Washington DC has a homicide rate of 41.78

So even comparing biggest cities, you are nearly four times likely to be murdered in NY than you are in London. And eighteen times more likely to be murdered in DC than in London.

 

[looney]

If you look at the trends rather than the absolute figures it blows a hole in the leftist BS about gun bans protecting people.


first you should disarm the crims, then the state then ask the desent law abiding people if they want gun controll.

 

[bhaexpress]

Speaking as somebody who will end upliving there the total lack of gun control is more than a little disconcerting. For example, a neighbour of ours in Georgia also happens to be the aunt of my Wife;s former hsuband. Ths woman is on welfare for a mental condition (she's prone to serious outbursts of rage, I kid you not). She has a gun and a licenese for it, scary or what.

One of my wife's brothers is a hunter and a gun fanatic. Apart from some sodding great hunting rifles not to mention hand guns he has a Heckler Koch machine pistol, fully functional too. Why the hell would he need that ? Yet in the State of Georgia (like so many US states) it's perfectly legal.

 

[Bare]

That Heckler Koch machine pistol, is it an auto-fire, that is, continues to fire as long as one pulls the trigger OR an auto-loader?

By the way, I'm not worried about the murder rate, it's the other violent crimes I'd be worried about.

Simster, the list is long and boring but there are 10K such incidents a year in the US. Not all scumbags are killed as a results of such a confrontation. An incident not long ago in Louisianna where two OLD ladies cornered a criminal and held him at gun point till the cops got there. He thanked the cops generously for showing up as quidkly as they did. He was worried the nervous OLD ladies might accidently shoot what with all their nervous shaking. And what is your source of your statistic you so arrogantly brag about?

 

[Simster]

If you look at the trends rather than the absolute figures it blows a hole in the leftist BS about gun bans protecting people.


first you should disarm the crims, then the state then ask the desent law abiding people if they want gun controll.

Trends are a misnomour. For example, the Chinese economy has grown faster than ours over the past decade - but that's because it's easier to go from $2,000 per capita to $3,000 than it is from $20,000 to $30,000.

The same applies with this case. And in this case, US violent crime rates are much higher than ours to start off. New York was horribly violent until the mayor got a grip in the '90s. And now it appears they've done well enough to get it down to "only" 3 times more murders than London per capita.

And cut the "leftist" crap Looney, I'm not particluarly left wing. Why do you appear to call everyone who doesn't agree with you a "commie"?

 

[Bare]

And one more thing, I need to know how I can tell if I'm a Redneck.

 

[Simster]

By the way, I'm not worried about the murder rate

Enough said.

And what is your source of your statistic you so arrogantly brag about?

United Nations 1996 Demographic Yearbook as I point out on page 3. Slightly dated I grant you, but proof (if needed) that you "arrogantly" haven't bothered reading the arguments put in front of you.

 

[looney]

Trends are a misnomour. For example, the Chinese economy has grown faster than ours over the past decade - but that's because it's easier to go from $2,000 per capita to $3,000 than it is from $20,000 to $30,000.

The same applies with this case. And in this case, US violent crime rates are much higher than ours to start off. New York was horribly violent until the mayor got a grip in the '90s. And now it appears they've done well enough to get it down to "only" 3 times more murders than London per capita.

And cut the "leftist" crap Looney, I'm not particluarly left wing. Why do you appear to call everyone who doesn't agree with you a "commie"?

you sidestepped my arguement, changes in policy sometimes do change trends.


btw.
Its because they are commies.