Watford are the best team I've seen at the Amex this season

[luke_golden]

Thanks for the explanation. How long have you been supporting Watford, Luke?

Coming on 20 years, which is a terrifying thought. Makes me feel horrendously old. This was actually the first time I've managed to catch us live this year, due to being exiled in Texas. I was very impressed with what I saw. Radio commentary and weekly highlights don't do us justice!

Exactly, their fans seem to love it though. It strikes me that Watford's history and heritage is being completely disregarded as they become a glorified reserve team/experiment for some foreign owners

It sits fairly uncomfortably with me, doesn't seem too far removed from what happened to Wimbledon, Blackburn, Cardiff, etc

EDIT/ Posted that before I noticed the Watford fans post. I still think there is a strong hint of them losing their soul. Like you say, the Pozzo family are business people with no real affection for Watford. Football clubs aren't historically easily to make money from in the long term, and I'm not convinced there is a positive outcome for Watford at the end of this. Watford aren't likely to ever have the squad or fanbase/infrastructure to really compete in the premiership and a business model based around yo-yoing seems doomed to fail. If Watford reach the Premiership, then I'm not convinced that Udinese/Granada/Watford have a large enough cohort of sufficient calibre players to maintain three competitive teams.

Not that I'd wish that on any club, especially not one like Watford.

Anyway, tonight: fans seemed a good laugh on the train up, team played nice football.

I've highlighted the part in bold because you make a fair point. I agree, a big challenge going forward is for the Pozzo group to supply 3 teams and keep them competitive.

However I feel as though my original post perhaps didn't explain their model fully enough. They make money by selling players, and fund this with one of the best scouting networks in the world - reportedly at a cost of 20 million Euros a year. They aim to find young gems, develop them and sell them to the biggest clubs - in the past few years they've sold the likes of Alexis Sanchez, Samir Handanovic, Gokhan Inler and Kwado Asamoah for massive sums and huge profits. Young players join their clubs on the understanding that in return for modest wages, they'll be allowed to move on in the future when a big club finally comes calling. You won't find us or Udinese wasting large sums of money on aging "stars" in the same way the QPR's, Forest's and Leicester's do.

Historically, Udinese are a small club, just like us, but this model has seen them climb from Serie B, to flirting with Champions League qualification - they average very similar attendances to us, despite being one of the better clubs in Serie A. Clearly the Premiership is a much harder nut to crack, but with the money that it generates, it's not hard to see why they would be interested in WFC. For one thing, player values here are far more bloated than in Italy, so it's not hard to imagine that we'll be seeing a good share of the gems their network unearths. If anything, Udinese are more likely to be neglected because of the riches that Premier League football offers. This also ties into our much acclaimed academy system - one of the major reasons they chose our club above others. We have a history of developing youngsters and our Harefield Academy, based on the same model as Ajax, and is likely to be a model copied by more and more clubs as they seek to develop better young players. In fact, just last month we signed Panos Armenakas, an Australian 14 year old who was wanted by clubs such as A.C. Milan and Barcelona, no doubt in part because of our excellent youth program.

It's by no means a guaranteed method for success and it could all come apart, but history suggests that these people know what they are doing - just see how the fortunes of Udinese and Granada have fared since they were taken over by the Pozzo family. We've survived on a very similar model ourselves the last 5 or so years - find young players, but them cheap and sell them on. Now we're just doing it with players who are from all over the world and a much better standard. I'll say it again, I'll take this over the mad billionaires that have clubs like Blackburn and others in freefall. We have sensible owners with a plan that has worked for two other clubs and has the backing of a massive scouting network that has sustained two clubs in top leagues - without either of them losing their identity or souls - so why not here as well?

It's an interesting debate because from the outside - and if you don't mind me saying - to the misinformed, it could look like travesty. Articles such the Daily Mail monstrosity by Martin Samuels who called us the worst thing that's ever happened to football have done us no favors. But as a whole, Watford fans have nothing but support for what is happening, having seen how they've operated since taking over and the steady stream of positive communication that is backed up by actions so far.

From what I can tell, this is just the beginning of a very exciting time for us.

 

[Horses Arse]

Evening.

The loan thing at Watford SOUNDS dodgy... but to my mind we have been taken over by someone not just with money, but with experience of running a smallish club successfully. And a massive scouting system and pool of players to boot. The model is to buy rough diamonds, develop, sell on at peak price... Udinese haven't done too bad by it, Pozzos have owned them for 25 years.

As for "Udinese B", we are supposed to have the pick of the players on loan as permanent signings; yes, we've fallen on our feet, but not sure that "tightening up rules" would or should counter that. They want to develop their English club. Vydra, Pudil, Abdi and Forestieri should sign permanently in January by all accounts; Vydra you saw in full effect this evening, Abdi was quiet but has bossed our midfield more often than Chalobah (albeit he is 26, not just 18) and Forestieri is extraordinary.

More here: A Bluffer’s Guide to Watford, Class of 2013 | The Two Unfortunates

best

M

It is very dodgy but clearly not breaking any rules yet. How fantastic it would be for every club to be able to buy a whole squad of players on a play before to pay scheme. Not possible though unless you have the unfair benefit of multiple club ownership across different countries.

There are rules against dual club ownership in the uk. Whilst this probably can't be applied to ownership outside of the uk the limit on loan players in a matchday squad could, whether they be from English clubs or elsewhere.

Watford are doing well because they have a huge squad packed with a first team of loan players to see who they fancy keeping. If they were restricted by the rules applied to all other clubs (due to origins of ownership) they would really be struggling.

In short it is far from fair and should be sorted out for next season.

 

[Sam-]

Watched the game with an old friend who had no knowledge of Brighton or Watford. And thus no bias. He thought Brighton weren't too bad but lack a creative midfielder.
He thought Watford were excellent. Moved the ball quickly in productive triangles. Third goal was brilliant.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

Neuton (on loan from Udinese) Pudil (Granada), Vydra (Udinese), Anya (Granada), Abdi (Udinese), Giejo (Sub, on loan from Udinese), Bia (on load from Standard Liege), Battocchio (Udinese), Chalobah (On loan from Chelsea) Forestieri (unused sub from Udinese).

Ten loan players, two unused subs.

Which begs the question....what happens when they return home.....but they were very good.

 

[trueblue]

I said on another thread we bossed the game for the first 15 minutes and if we had a goalscorer we could have easily won the three points during that period

Exactly. We need to take advantage in those spells which is why a reliable goal scorer would make such a difference. It would solve the perceived lack of creativity too. At the moment, I think we appear to run out of ideas because the players get fed up with putting in crosses that nobody gets on the end of. Then we pull back centres to the edge of the box but they're cut out too easily. So we start to try different ways of getting through, and get crowded out around the central areas on the edge of the box.

We have several players who can put in excellent deliveries - but we need a striker who will read it and get there first. I like CMS but find it amazing that, with his burst of pace, he never seems to get across his marker at the near post. He could be in double figures from those chances alone but it just doesn't seem to be his game.

 

[JCL666]

Exactly. We need to take advantage in those spells which is why a reliable goal scorer would make such a difference. It would solve the perceived lack of creativity too. At the moment, I think we appear to run out of ideas because the players get fed up with putting in crosses that nobody gets on the end of. Then we pull back centres to the edge of the box but they're cut out too easily. So we start to try different ways of getting through, and get crowded out around the central areas on the edge of the box.

We have several players who can put in excellent deliveries - but we need a striker who will read it and get there first. I like CMS but find it amazing that, with his burst of pace, he never seems to get across his marker at the near post. He could be in double figures from those chances alone but it just doesn't seem to be his game.

Thank f**k someone else sees this too!!

We seem to be able to deliver the ball in, but have little or no attacking option in the box.

oh and [MENTION=1958]Gaswag[/MENTION] you're right too, first 15 or 20 we looked a threat but had no end product.

 

[Finchley Seagull]

I disagree. They were ok, but we were soo poor today it was unreal. I reckon one of worst performances at the AMEX. And so made them look better than they actually were.

It is funny how differently people see games. I thought we were ok, especially in the first half when we played some nice football, but Watford were the best team I have seen all season. They deserved to win although the one thing I would say is, if the second goal hadn't been deflected in, it might have been a different result (although probably not).

 

[Finchley Seagull]

Watford fan here - nice to read so many positive comments regarding the way we played tonight and a change - on the most part - from the usual bitterness towards us regarding the loans.

I think I speak for a large portion of Watford fans when I say how happy and lucky we are to have been taken over by the Pozzo family - they've given us players who are on a whole different level to those we're used to signing and seeing play for our club, whilst the stability they've brought on the financial side is a welcome relief. We're no longer forced to flog anybody with a sniff of potential for peanuts - think Buckley and Sordell last year.

Unsurprisingly, the influx of loan players has caused a controversy and the moniker "Udinese B" is understandable - if not a little unfair. By all accounts, those players on loan are now our players - those deemed good enough are expected to sign permanently this January, while those who have failed to hit the expected heights will go back to Udinese. The Pozzo family are business people first and foremost, attracted to our club by the prospect of the Premier League money. Those who claim we're nothing more than a finishing school for Udinese are conveniently ignoring the fact that reaching the Premier League means a lot of money. Considering the Pozzo model is based on making money, it seems unlikely to me that they'd do anything other than use the resources they have available to get us into the Premier League - and have us stay there once up.

Of course - and again not unexpected - there have been rumblings from most clubs regarding "losing our identity, losing our soul". I don't think this could be more wrong - our identity has always been to be a club punching above our weight - and this respect, we're continuing this trend. Others may point to our tradition of developing youth - again a number of academy graduates have made an impact this season - none more so than Tommie Hoban who was imperious tonight. As is the case with most clubs - if you're good enough, you'll play. Further to this, pretty much every single player we signed from Udinese has continually shown how happy they are to be here, whilst displaying a genuine passion for the club both on and off the field - through their performances on the pitch and their appearances at community/club events for kids and fans alike.

Happy to debate further and perhaps try to straighten out some of the misconceptions about our club this season for those who have them. I'll finish by saying how thankful we are to have been taken over by the Pozzo family - people with experience in football and a model for success based on a massive scouting network and player sales - rather than becoming the play thing of an Arab billionaire or suffering another chancer like our previous owner - who has just been charged by the football league over his illicit operating.

Interesting explanation of Watford's situation. From what I saw in the summer, a lot of people were unhappy with Dyche being sacked, Zola coming in and the influx of loan players. However, if you play like you did yesterday often (which you obviously are at the moment), then this will presumably have led to views changing. I was very impressed with Watford last night. Chalobah was superb, Vydra was exceptional up front and you were well organised and solid at the back.

As for the rules, I do question how they can allow so many loanees at a club in one go but that is not Watford's fault. Presumably if the rules changed, you could just sign players from Udinese/Granada rather than loaning them.

Good luck for the rest of the season. If last night is anything to go by, you will definitely be in the top 6.

 

[trueblue]

It is funny how differently people see games. I thought we were ok, especially in the first half when we played some nice football, but Watford were the best team I have seen all season. They deserved to win although the one thing I would say is, if the second goal hadn't been deflected in, it might have been a different result (although probably not).

Totally agree. Nothing much in it in the first half although I thought they looked more dangerous around the edge of the box for the final 20 minutes. But their second goal was very lucky and we then got caught with a very good counter-attack as we looked for another equaliser which killed us. No Buckley either which really didn't help. Just one of those days.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

Coming on 20 years, which is a terrifying thought. Makes me feel horrendously old. This was actually the first time I've managed to catch us live this year, due to being exiled in Texas. I was very impressed with what I saw. Radio commentary and weekly highlights don't do us justice!



I've highlighted the part in bold because you make a fair point. I agree, a big challenge going forward is for the Pozzo group to supply 3 teams and keep them competitive.

However I feel as though my original post perhaps didn't explain their model fully enough. They make money by selling players, and fund this with one of the best scouting networks in the world - reportedly at a cost of 20 million Euros a year. They aim to find young gems, develop them and sell them to the biggest clubs - in the past few years they've sold the likes of Alexis Sanchez, Samir Handanovic, Gokhan Inler and Kwado Asamoah for massive sums and huge profits. Young players join their clubs on the understanding that in return for modest wages, they'll be allowed to move on in the future when a big club finally comes calling. You won't find us or Udinese wasting large sums of money on aging "stars" in the same way the QPR's, Forest's and Leicester's do.

Historically, Udinese are a small club, just like us, but this model has seen them climb from Serie B, to flirting with Champions League qualification - they average very similar attendances to us, despite being one of the better clubs in Serie A. Clearly the Premiership is a much harder nut to crack, but with the money that it generates, it's not hard to see why they would be interested in WFC. For one thing, player values here are far more bloated than in Italy, so it's not hard to imagine that we'll be seeing a good share of the gems their network unearths. If anything, Udinese are more likely to be neglected because of the riches that Premier League football offers. This also ties into our much acclaimed academy system - one of the major reasons they chose our club above others. We have a history of developing youngsters and our Harefield Academy, based on the same model as Ajax, and is likely to be a model copied by more and more clubs as they seek to develop better young players. In fact, just last month we signed Panos Armenakas, an Australian 14 year old who was wanted by clubs such as A.C. Milan and Barcelona, no doubt in part because of our excellent youth program.

It's by no means a guaranteed method for success and it could all come apart, but history suggests that these people know what they are doing - just see how the fortunes of Udinese and Granada have fared since they were taken over by the Pozzo family. We've survived on a very similar model ourselves the last 5 or so years - find young players, but them cheap and sell them on. Now we're just doing it with players who are from all over the world and a much better standard. I'll say it again, I'll take this over the mad billionaires that have clubs like Blackburn and others in freefall. We have sensible owners with a plan that has worked for two other clubs and has the backing of a massive scouting network that has sustained two clubs in top leagues - without either of them losing their identity or souls - so why not here as well?

It's an interesting debate because from the outside - and if you don't mind me saying - to the misinformed, it could look like travesty. Articles such the Daily Mail monstrosity by Martin Samuels who called us the worst thing that's ever happened to football have done us no favors. But as a whole, Watford fans have nothing but support for what is happening, having seen how they've operated since taking over and the steady stream of positive communication that is backed up by actions so far.

From what I can tell, this is just the beginning of a very exciting time for us.

Great post

 

[u'vebeenamexed]

Watford - this years Doncaster ?

 

[luke_golden]

Interesting explanation of Watford's situation. From what I saw in the summer, a lot of people were unhappy with Dyche being sacked, Zola coming in and the influx of loan players. However, if you play like you did yesterday often (which you obviously are at the moment), then this will presumably have led to views changing. I was very impressed with Watford last night. Chalobah was superb, Vydra was exceptional up front and you were well organised and solid at the back.

As for the rules, I do question how they can allow so many loanees at a club in one go but that is not Watford's fault. Presumably if the rules changed, you could just sign players from Udinese/Granada rather than loaning them.

Good luck for the rest of the season. If last night is anything to go by, you will definitely be in the top 6.

Thank you. The Dyche situation was unfortunate - he did a really solid job here last year in very tough circumstances, not to mention working under an owner that had very dark intentions for the club. Laurence Bassini owes us 1.5 million in transfer fees that he fraudulently pocketed for himself while in charge - bringing charges from the football league and a transfer embargo for us during the summer. In fact, part of the reason we have so many on loan is down to the embargo placed upon us as a result of having the bastard mentioned above in control of our club. With time running out before the season began, it was a lot more convenient for the players to join on loan - making their transfers permanent at a later date if they had done a good job here. Back to the Dyche sacking, there is no doubt that he didn't deserve to go, but I'd rather the managers make a tough decision early on, than keep Dyche around just to appease the fans before sacking him at the first sign of poor performances. At the end of the day, they saved our club from administration - it's their call who to put in charge.

The influx of loan players was indeed a worry, so credit goes to Zola for making it work so quickly. Further credit to Zola for making each of them earn their spot in the team. None of them have shown up and walked into the team - regardless of the reputation they brought with them. That's why people like Battochio and Neuton were on the bench yesterday, while Hogg and Hoban continued to hold their places in the side. The same reason why Mark Yeates, Connor Smith, Sean Murray, Lloyd Doyley, Adam Thompson, Joe Garner, Chris Iwelumo, and a few others have all played a part this season having been here last year. Comparisons to Doncaster are wide of the mark. We're not signing aging mercenaries because their agent is mates with our boss, we're signing young players who have been identified by a vast scouting network as having great potential and are here to develop so that one day, they can be sold for a profit. Just how we operated last season and the reason we sold Buckley to you, or Sordell to Bolton. The major difference is that these players are expected to take us to the Premier League as well.

As for the moral question - is it right for a club to have so many loans or should owners be allowed to operate like this? I can understand why it is looked upon with such distaste by many fans from other clubs, especially with all of the false information that is floating around the football media regarding our situation. The reality is, we're owned by football people, with a plan that is sustainable and proven to bring relative success. These people have literally spent 25 years developing their method and creating their scouting network around the world. I don't think we need to worry about it happening to other clubs anytime soon, because the infrastructure it requires can't be built overnight. Is it any less "fair" than a club being taken over by billionaires who throw money at the club until they achieve success? At least this method is driven by sustainability that will one day allow success.

 

[Horses Arse]

Watford were a bit like Leeds. Players comfortable on the ball in all positions, and the ability to move it quickly and with purpose. We seem to have a fair amount of flair in most positions, but the sum of the parts fails to make a whole

Just shown this to a Leeds supporting mate - think he's done his hernia pissing himself laughing.

Leeds are agricultural in tactics snd technique (his words). He comes to watch the albion occassionally and finds the negativity of the fans hilarious given the quality of football on show.