Two weeks to go - how are you voting in the EU referendum? - Leave or Remain?

[hans kraay fan club]

Of course!!! I also understand why people are voting stay and I'm certainly not going to rubbish anyone else's view, it's a shame that so many on both sides hijack the debate into a slanging math.

I do wonder if the leave campaign would've done any better if they hadn't played the immigration card from the beginning. Probably not, unfortunately.

Not a chance. The immigration 'card' IS the debate, for a huge number in the Leave camp (including many of those who claim that it isn't).

 

[ManOfSussex]

Nobody is claiming a Utopia. I don't see any reason we would be weaker, the more we have control over our own affairs the stronger we are surely?

"Putin would like Brexit", first of all, that is a fallacious argument, do you really believe that people should vote based on what they think Putin would like least? In truth I think Putin would probably prefer us to remain and the European project to continue. Russia has a history of empire and has seen the consequences of a massive, top-down USSR. It eventually leads to massive poverty and ends in collapse, first of the economy, then social collapse and chaos. You only have to look at the Eurozone crisis and massive unemployment in Southern Europe to see the parallels. But I'm not going to argue that you should decide to leave because Putin would like to see us to stay. I think basing this decision on what Putin will think is incredibly misguided.

Putin is not the sole basis of my decision, there's a whole host of factors. I cannot see how Putin would want us to remain though, so that the UK's security and prosperity, when Scottish independence occurs post Brexit is further weakened and we cease to have a nuclear deterrent and lose 10% of our remaining armed forces and spend the next x years negotiating with all and sundry to secure the utopia of 'Little England'. I do some sometimes wonder if Johnson and Farage still believe we have Dreadnoughts ruling the waves out there.....................

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

In Fact Al Murray's 'Lets Go Backwards Together'' plays Brighton next April - he has a great set of beer mats out - heres just one of them, they are spoofing the Wetherspoons ones I think

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Brilliant stuff, he is playing The De La War next February, loved it when he stood against Farage in the last election, his manifesto was superb.

I think half the people that like him share many of the opinions of the character and the other half like the way he is satirising/ridiculing some of those views. I like the act although thought he made a mistake standing against Farage. As with Izzard last night ... comedians should stick to what they do best.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Not a chance. The immigration 'card' IS the debate, for a huge number in the Leave camp (including many of those who claim that it isn't).

Exactly, but we will never get rid of free movement and we'll have no influence on who joins the EU in the future by being out of it in The EEA.

 

[dingodan]

...whilst at the same time still having some control of our own affairs.

i.e. being weaker.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Do you really believe that the kids club would have been any different if we had not been in the EU? Or that there will be nobody from Romania in the UK?

The negatives about the EU are about political union, not Europe as a continent, and not others who live in Europe.

In what way has Europe been a force for good which could not be achieved by independant states on a voluntary basis?

My point is that these young people were free to live, work and move around the EU and have the experience of working alongside people from other countries and backgrounds. They clearly loved what they were doing and I was very happy that my kids know that Polish, Czech and Spanish people are not so very different from us - I think an 'island mentality' is generally a bad thing for a kid, I want mine to be outward looking.

As for Romanians, my employee is an economics degree graduate from Bucharest for whom opportunities in Romania were few and far between. She has lived here for 15 years or so but still retains a place in Romania with her husband.

The EU has helped created opportunities and opened doors. It would be naïve to expect the EU to absorb most of Eastern Europe in a couple of decades and still function perfectly, and I fully expect people pressure on issues like the Euro and immigration to push EU leaders into taking a more pragmatic / less dogmatic approach in the future.

 

[Pavilionaire]

10 days in Greece might have been a different experience. I think they know what EU shackles look like. 50% youth unemployment ...

Spare me the violins! I have limited sympathy for a country that, historically, pays f*ck-all tax to its government and has been bankrupt 5 times before it ever joined the EU.

Until 2009 Greek men were retiring - on average - at age 57 and even now 75% retire on/before 61. A society too dependent on pensions and state benefits with insufficient job creation and immigration. More fool them for living the Life of Riley and more fool the EU bureaucrats and leaders for allowing this lazy country into the Eurozone before it had implemented proper societal reforms.

 

[Sorrel]

The EU has helped created opportunities and opened doors.

And those that can take advantage of them, both in the UK and the rest of the EU, are the winners in modern society. Those who can't or won't will lose out.

That's pretty much been the tenor of the campaign, with those who aren't doing so well generally supporting Brexit and those who are enjoying the current economic system in favour of staying in (and then, occasionally, the more wealthy accusing the less wealthy of being racist - just to really rub it in).

 

[Soulman]

Spare me the violins! I have limited sympathy for a country that, historically, pays f*ck-all tax to its government and has been bankrupt 5 times before it ever joined the EU.

Until 2009 Greek men were retiring - on average - at age 57 and even now 75% retire on/before 61. A society too dependent on pensions and state benefits with insufficient job creation and immigration. More fool them for living the Life of Riley and more fool the EU bureaucrats and leaders for allowing this lazy country into the Eurozone before it had implemented proper societal reforms.

Ok, so just say that i agree with all you say re Greece, and i could say a few countries either in or on the verge of the EU, are in a not to dissimilar position, so who bails Greece out, and who will bail other countries out in the future. I would say the UK is second in putting its hands in its deep pockets. So i might agree with your post, in which case the sensible thing is to vote out.....or you can of course complain about Greece etc and keep paying.

 

[Two Professors]

Ohh give me the details, what documents/recordings/films do you have on this blackmail, this is scandalous and could bring down the German, French, British and USA governments, all of whom sold arms to Greece, show us the dirt, please, I would love to expose this shocking industry.

Oh do grow up-how old are you,12?

 

[Sorrel]

I'm looking forward to the 'How did you vote?' threads then the 'How did you wish you had now voted?' threads.

Whichever side loses is going to spend the next ten years blaming everything on this result.

 

[dingodan]

My point is that these young people were free to live, work and move around the EU and have the experience of working alongside people from other countries and backgrounds. They clearly loved what they were doing and I was very happy that my kids know that Polish, Czech and Spanish people are not so very different from us - I think an 'island mentality' is generally a bad thing for a kid, I want mine to be outward looking.

As for Romanians, my employee is an economics degree graduate from Bucharest for whom opportunities in Romania were few and far between. She has lived here for 15 years or so but still retains a place in Romania with her husband.

The EU has helped created opportunities and opened doors. It would be naïve to expect the EU to absorb most of Eastern Europe in a couple of decades and still function perfectly, and I fully expect people pressure on issues like the Euro and immigration to push EU leaders into taking a more pragmatic / less dogmatic approach in the future.

& I am saying that you would have just the same tapestry of young people from different countries and cultures working in exactly the same places, and in exactly the same way. Because like you say, it's brilliant for the kids, it's brilliant for everyone. To exit the EU is not to have an "island mentality", it is just that we have boundaries and we make decisions for ourselves. We will always be outward looking, that will never change, but as I said before, our relationship with the rest of Europe will be one in which nations respect one another and don't try to force their will on each other. I think we have a slightly antagonistic relationship with the other nations of Europe today, precisely because everyone is engaged in arm twisting and coercion under this system.

Your Romanian employee sounds very qualified and would have no trouble coming to the UK to work, again it's an arrangement which is mutually beneficial, so we would have no problem with it. But it would be voluntary, it would be policy because it would have the consent of the people.

Nobody wants to be insular and isolated, it's not a choice between engaging or turning our back, it's a choice between a relationship based on mutual respect / volutary cooperation - or - force and coercion with no democratic consent.

"We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed." - Winston Churchill.

 

[Swillis]

Are you a Billy-No-Mates then?

Evening Standard Poll

I suppose it depends whom you class as a Londoner.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Ok, so just say that i agree with all you say re Greece, and i could say a few countries either in or on the verge of the EU, are in a not to dissimilar position, so who bails Greece out, and who will bail other countries out in the future. I would say the UK is second in putting its hands in its deep pockets. So i might agree with your post, in which case the sensible thing is to vote out.....or you can of course complain about Greece etc and keep paying.

I think you're moving away from the topic of the EU and onto the topic of the Euro currency. The UK is not in the Eurozone, although the Germans are driving some of the changes that the Greeks should have made before they entered the Euro, like tightening up on benefits and the tax systems, and increasing the state retirement age.

 

[Soulman]

I think you're moving away from the topic of the EU and onto the topic of the Euro currency. The UK is not in the Eurozone, although the Germans are driving some of the changes that the Greeks should have made before they entered the Euro, like tightening up on benefits and the tax systems, and increasing the state retirement age.

Quote: "Germans are driving"...........yep seems they are.

 

[Pavilionaire]

& I am saying that you would have just the same tapestry of young people from different countries and cultures working in exactly the same places, and in exactly the same way. Because like you say, it's brilliant for the kids, it's brilliant for everyone. To exit the EU is not to have an "island mentality", it is just that we have boundaries and we make decisions for ourselves. We will always be outward looking, that will never change, but as I said before, our relationship with the rest of Europe will be one in which nations respect one another and don't try to force their will on each other. I think we have a slightly antagonistic relationship with the other nations of Europe today, precisely because everyone is engaged in arm twisting and coercion under this system.

Your Romanian employee sounds very qualified and would have no trouble coming to the UK to work, again it's an arrangement which is mutually beneficial, so we would have no problem with it. But it would be voluntary, it would be policy because it would have the consent of the people.

Nobody wants to be insular and isolated, it's not a choice between engaging or turning our back, it's a choice between a relationship based on mutual respect / volutary cooperation - or - force and coercion with no democratic consent.

"We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed." - Winston Churchill.

I think that a sizeable minority of the UK population IS completely insular and inward-looking, particularly those that don't travel abroad, or work with people or businesses from overseas, or retired people who feel we had too much immigration in the 50s and 60s and for whom the fear-mongering of Farage and his "potential 500million EU immigrants" line is one step too far.

I also believe that in order for the EU to regain control of the migration into and within the EU then the UK should be at the forefront of reform. This is a live issue and there will be changes, regardless of what the other EU leaders in power at the present time resisting change say.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Quote: "Germans are driving"...........yep seems they are.

Is that a bad thing? The most successful economic country in Europe making lazy countries get their sh1t together? Fair play to them, I say.

 

[The Rivet]

Is that a bad thing? The most successful economic country in Europe making lazy countries get their sh1t together? Fair play to them, I say.

Why didn't they make Greece get their shit together before allowing them membership then?

 

[dingodan]

I think that a sizeable minority of the UK population IS completely insular and inward-looking, particularly those that don't travel abroad, or work with people or businesses from overseas, or retired people who feel we had too much immigration in the 50s and 60s and for whom the fear-mongering of Farage and his "potential 500million EU immigrants" line is one step too far.

I also believe that in order for the EU to regain control of the migration into and within the EU then the UK should be at the forefront of reform. This is a live issue and there will be changes, regardless of what the other EU leaders in power at the present time resisting change say.

Maybe there is a large segment of the population who feel that way. But the UK government will never be that way, it's not in our tradition, as I think you've pointed out. We are outward looking, it's in our nature as a nation, and that will never change, even if we leave this political union.

I do sympathise with the argument that we can help to change the EU for the better, but when it comes down to it I think that the way we can really help to make the EU better is by showing other nations you can be both a compassionate, active and engaged nation, while at the same time also being self ruling and accountable to the people of your country. Indeed, it's actually the only way of garanteeing our common humanity. I trust the people of Europe to protect and preserve our common humanity in the long term, by remaining the final decision makers, - far more than I trust the unelected and unaccountable EU political structure to do so.