[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[beorhthelm]

The idea that he got most of the big decision right, is again delusional. It is excusable only in as much as the circumstances were so unprecedented, I am not sure any would could genuinely have managed that. 37bn written off on track and trace, 4.2bn written off on fraudulent support claims, world leading Covid deaths, which of these support the claim to getting the big decisions right?

yeah, the positive reaction in economy (not much else) is despite Johnson not because of him. but are we really going use spending money on tests against him? and furlough fraud that was raised at the time and everyone said we'd rather get money to people? the expected position of the Conservatives would have been to do neither of those things.

 

[Pevenseagull]

It genuinely is like, where Trump goes, this tory government follows closely behind

Just waiting for a new slogan, 'Make Britain Great Again'. Which would be particularly appropriate because it would indicate that they hadn't properly considered Northern Ireland.

 

[The Clamp]

You know it wasn't just the partying. In normal circumstances Carrie and Lulu should NEVER be in the cabinet office. Carrie maybe once at a pre-arranged time for a tour. The casual nature of this just displays extraordinary slack security.
This is basic security 101 the principle of least privilege. At this time there was a critical biosecurity risk, capable of bringing government business to a halt. There was arguably a need to keep a core of ministers and officials working together in a confined space. Johnson like everyone else had/has the right to go home and see his family, keeping these two things separate in these circumstances is really very simple and straightforward. There are locked doors and three flights of stairs apparently. He/they got it horribly wrong.

Some people have it in for him and will never forgive or forget, but many more would have given him the benefit of the doubt if he had been honest about it, owned up mistakes were made and promised he would learn from it. The lies and self denial just take this to another level.

The idea that he got most of the big decision right, is again delusional. It is excusable only in as much as the circumstances were so unprecedented, I am not sure any would could genuinely have managed that. 37bn written off on track and trace, 4.2bn written off on fraudulent support claims, world leading Covid deaths, which of these support the claim to getting the big decisions right?

Yes I’m aware it isn’t just the parties. The bloke and his cabinet are corrupt to the core. Loans, PPE VIP’s, wasted billions, track and trace, parties at Downing Street, cash for honours, affairs, lies after lie after lie.

And that’s just what we know about.

 

[dazzer6666]

But let's not forget the most surprising thing about this, he genuinely believes he did nothing wrong. It's pretty obvious, there's photographic evidence that he did something wrong, but he STILL refuses to believe it.

And even then, if he still genuinely believes he's not done anything wrong at all, the public by and large believe he has. And in the past that would have been more than enough for him to have been for the high jump. John Profumo arguably did nothing wrong, but the mere perception that he might have was enough to force him out of politics and public life in general.

He doesn’t believe it IMO - he simply doesn’t care, he just arrogantly thinks he can ride it out through bluster and bluff and it’ll all blow over when the next ‘distraction’ comes along.

 

[The Clamp]

But let's not forget the most surprising thing about this, he genuinely believes he did nothing wrong. It's pretty obvious, there's photographic evidence that he did something wrong, but he STILL refuses to believe it.

And even then, if he still genuinely believes he's not done anything wrong at all, the public by and large believe he has. And in the past that would have been more than enough for him to have been for the high jump. John Profumo arguably did nothing wrong, but the mere perception that he might have was enough to force him out of politics and public life in general.

I disagree here. He knows very well he’s done wrong. He just believes he should get away with it. And so far he has, so why shouldn’t he believe he’ll get away with it time after time?

I could buy the theory that he knows he’s broken the rules but thinks that’s not wrong because he’s part of the elite and therefore the rules don’t apply to him and his mob. But why then lie? You’d just admit it and say so what?


I could buy the theory that his life, day to day, is filledwith so many lies, half truths and deflection that he might lose some of the detail in the mountainous heap of subterfuge that he has created but for him to think he has genuinely done nothing wrong? Nah, he knows. That’s why he’s lying so much.

 

[bhafc99]

Rules are for the little people. Boris has spent his entire life believing himself to be above all that.

 

[Lever]

Rules are for the little people. Boris has spent his entire life believing himself to be above all that.

That is well documented in an adult life often lived 'under the spotlight'....

....so why oh why do voters continue to make excuses for him or deflect from that core truth? I can partly understand (but certainly don't condone) loyalty shown by those in public life who feel they have benefitted from his premiership, but surely integrity is a higher virtue than loyalty!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Lord Frost is advocating purging the staff.

First, they came for the staff.....

[tweet]1486638218414014470[/tweet]

 

[Peteinblack]

[/B]

That is well documented in an adult life often lived 'under the spotlight'....

....so why oh why do voters continue to make excuses for him or deflect from that core truth? I can partly understand (but certainly don't condone) those in public life who feel they have benefitted from his premiership remaining loyal, but surely integrity is a higher virtue than loyalty!

The three 'defences' of Johnson I have heard continuously since he became PM, and I still hear today are:

a) "All political leaders are corrupt and only in it for themselves; why pick on Boris?"
b) "That Commie terrorist-loving **** Corbyn would have been a lot worse."
c) "At least Boris 'got Brexit done', and has presided over a succesful vaccine roll-out to defeat Covid to allow our lives to return to near normality."

A lot of his defenders would still support him even if he murdered their family and burned down their house right in front of their eyes - their continued adulation of him is like some kind of cult-worship (rather like that which some on the Left displayed towards Corbyn) .

 

[Thunder Bolt]

ITN News must be uncomfortable watching. Looks like a British Passport holding Afghan’s 4 year old daughter was given less attention than a stray dog.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I prefer to listen to Pen himself.

[tweet]1486636352322125831[/tweet]

 

[Peteinblack]

Lord Frost is advocating purging the staff.

First, they came for the staff.....

[tweet]1486638218414014470[/tweet]

This from a government (and its Pravda-like press sycophants) which condemns 'cancel culture' and insists that freedom-of-speech is sacrosanct

 

[nicko31]

yeah, the positive reaction in economy (not much else) is despite Johnson not because of him. but are we really going use spending money on tests against him? and furlough fraud that was raised at the time and everyone said we'd rather get money to people? the expected position of the Conservatives would have been to do neither of those things.

We definitely had a bounce in 2021 on the back of a huge 2020 contraction, the £400B borrowing from Sunak helped which you would expect

Looking at levels of governance, overall economic fallout and the cost to public health and well being we're a long way from being world beating.

 

[MJsGhost]

Have you read Collapse by Jared Diamond? (Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed). Its an excellent book, ostensibly looking at how environmental destruction led to societal collapse, with Easter Island the prime case study but as he looks further and at different examples (modern-day as well as historic) he identifies five common factors that contribute to the collapse of societies: environmental damage, climate change, hostile neighbors, loss of trading partners, and the society's responses to its problems. A recurrent problem in collapsing societies is a structure that creates "a conflict between the short-term interests of those in power, and the long-term interests of the society as a whole." resulting in a societies' loss of faith in its leaders.

It's a really interesting and powerful book, and every since reading it I've viewed things like brexit, the rise of trump and Johnson or our response to climate change, within this prism.

Have you read Humankind: A Hopeful History by Rutger Bregman?
He offers a different, more positive view on a number of scientific experiments, historical events (including the demise of the Easter Islanders) and even fiction (e.g. Lord of the Flies) that are often used as examples/evidence to show that humans are naturally bad/selfish and will destroy each other and themselves if left to it.
I found it fascinating and somewhat heartening that there is at least debate around the commonly accepted conclusion that we are a selfish species.

As with most things, there’s probably a middle ground that fits best, along with exceptions that prove the rule on either side, but I like that there’s an optimistic overview from which to draw your own conclusions on specific examples.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This from a government (and its Pravda-like press sycophants) which condemns 'cancel culture' and insists that freedom-of-speech is sacrosanct

Lip service. Their motto is I'll say anything you want me to say but don't believe a word of it. It's a mass of corruption and lies.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I prefer to listen to Pen himself.

[tweet]1486636352322125831[/tweet]

But (and i'm talking to Pen), the issues weren't just space on the plane, more the administrative capacity to process applications and physically get the people onto the planes.

Resources which would have no doubt been diverted to rescue a few poodles

 

[Peteinblack]

Lip service. Their motto is I'll say anything you want me to say but don't believe a word of it. It's a mass of corruption and lies.

Yup, all about stoking the culture wars, fuelling social division to divert public attention from the insatiable greed of the rich, and keep persuading the 'left behind' that a bunch of public-school-educated City-boy millionaires (Farage, Rees-Smugg) are actually on the side of the working-class against the Establishment.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But (and i'm talking to Pen), the issues weren't just space on the plane, more the administrative capacity to process applications and physically get the people onto the planes.

Resources which would have no doubt been diverted to rescue a few poodles

I followed the whole saga from the start. It was a privately chartered plane, Pen organised his own staff to load the plane etc and there was plenty of air space available for flights. He is trustworthy whereas I wouldn't trust any press reports or politicians' comments.
Your comment about poodles tells me everything I want to know about your opinion.
One dog went to a mother of a soldier who died out there. It had been promised to her.

 

[beorhthelm]

We definitely had a bounce in 2021 on the back of a huge 2020 contraction, the £400B borrowing from Sunak helped which you would expect

Looking at levels of governance, overall economic fallout and the cost to public health and well being we're a long way from being world beating.

is funny how that keeps coming back, when the app was ditched within a month. hoist on his own petard.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Yes I’m aware it isn’t just the parties. The bloke and his cabinet are corrupt to the core. Loans, PPE VIP’s, wasted billions, track and trace, parties at Downing Street, cash for honours, affairs, lies after lie after lie.

And that’s just what we know about.

Sorry - does read like I was giving you a lecture there.

 

[Gwylan]

... rescue a few poodles

Are we talking about Nadine Dorries now?