[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[Neville's Breakfast]

There was a lot more evidence behind the claim that Johnson is a racist and an Islamophobe than there was behind the one that Corbyn is an antisemite. That was in part because Johnson is far more effective in playing the media game, in part because the Tories were much better organised, and in part because the media are what they are in this country.

I think there is plenty of evidence that Corbyn and allies did not understand that conspiracy theories around capitalism/banking/the media are the type of anti scemitism endured by Jews for over a thousand years. These dog whistle tropes are used unthinkingly until a generation comes along sufficiently mobilized to restart the massacres.
Just for the avoidance of doubt though you should remind yourself of the anti Semitic abuse described by Luciana Berger. Plenty of evidence there;

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...on-in-emotional-anti-semitism-debate-11335825

I am not sure that level of hatred has been documented in any other mainstream political party ?

 

[highflyer]

There was a lot more evidence behind the claim that Johnson is a racist and an Islamophobe than there was behind the one that Corbyn is an antisemite. That was in part because Johnson is far more effective in playing the media game, in part because the Tories were much better organised, and in part because the media are what they are in this country.

There was little or no evidence that Corbyn himself was/is an anti-semite (though plenty will believe what they want to believe) I would never have supported him if I genuinely believed that he was. Anyone who knows me would know that. There was however evidence of anti-semitism in parts of the Labour party and Corbyn failed to deal with that quickly and strongly enough.

I fully agree that there is far more, and far stronger evidence of widespread racism, anti-semitism and islamophobia in the Tory party including Johnson himself. I remember reading an article by a black Tory MP from one of the shires talking about how he faced open racism in his local party, but strangely that never got widely picked up. Even the article/interview itself made little of it beyond a passing comment (along the lines of 'of course I faced hostility from some local party members because of who I was'). Presumably everyone simply expects it. so it's not 'news'...Anyway, we know what the media is in this country, and who they support, and that needed to be better managed. Baroness Warsi has talked very openly about the Islamophobia she has faced. During the leadership campaign Johnson promised an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the party which was swiftly and quietly dropped once he was in power, with very little media scrutiny. Strange that. Noneof this excuses the failure to tackle anti-semitism in Labour, but it does demonstrate that the media is not neutral on these issues.

My hope (when I voted from him as leader) was that Starmer could pick up the largely popular, progressive, policy agenda that Corbyn had successfully normalized, whilst shedding the all the dirt that had been thrown at Corbyn (with some sticking). I hope like [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] that is still the idea, but from what I hear from the 'inside' there's little evidence of it so far. It genuinely seems to be a 'vision vacuum' at the moment. Have nice hair, be nice to big business and 'don't be Boris'. I hope that changes soon.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think there is plenty of evidence that Corbyn and allies did not understand that conspiracy theories around capitalism/banking/the media are the type of anti scemitism endured by Jews for over a thousand years. These tropes are used unthinkingly until a generation comes along sufficiently mobilized to restart the massacres.
Just for the avoidance of doubt though you should remind yourself of the anti Semitic abuse described by Luciana Berger. Plenty of evidence there;

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...on-in-emotional-anti-semitism-debate-11335825

I am not sure that level of hatred has been documented in any other mainstream political party ?

Unfortunately, you're engaging with a point you want to make, rather than the one that I've made, which was that there's more evidence for Johnson being a racist and an Islamophobe than there is for Corbyn being an antisemite. Now, if you want to engage with this, please go ahead and post the evidence where Corbyn has made antisemitic comments. I'll then post the evidence for Johnson, and we'll agree that this statement is correct.

I don't disagree with your point about the hopeless and appalling manner in which Corbyn dealt with antisemitism in the Labour Party, which demonstrated his ineptitude nor the horrendous treatment that the Jewish community were subjected to by some extremely unpleasant elements that Corbyn brought with him. I would also invite you to consult the tireless documentation of Islamophobia that Lady Warsi has exposed within the Tory Party.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Unfortunately, you're engaging with a point you want to make, rather than the one that I've made, which was that there's more evidence for Johnson being a racist and an Islamophobe than there is for Corbyn being an antisemite. Now, if you want to engage with this, please go ahead and post the evidence where Corbyn has made antisemitic comments. I'll then post the evidence for Johnson, and we'll agree that this statement is correct.

I don't disagree with your point about the hopeless and appalling manner in which Corbyn dealt with antisemitism in the Labour Party, which demonstrated his ineptitude nor the horrendous treatment that the Jewish community were subjected to by some extremely unpleasant elements that Corbyn brought with him. I would also invite you to consult the tireless documentation of Islamophobia that Lady Warsi has exposed within the Tory Party.

I don’t doubt what you say about the Tory party although I am interested to see your evidence that it is more hatred filled than that described by Luciana Berger (many sources on the internet for this). That is engaging very directly with your point. If you read my post again I did explicitly say that Corbyn’s anti semitism came from a lack of understanding. I don’t for a minute doubt his good intentions but unfortunately the effect on the Jewish community is much the same as the ridiculing of the Islamic community displayed in some of Boris Johnson’s comments.

 

[JBizzle]

Johnson won't be seen for a week, because an unspecified member of his close family has tested positive. Although the current regulations don't require him to do this, he thinks it's the best approach in the circumstances.

The problem is: what proportion of the electorate will think that this is true, or a story concocted to take him out of the limelight for a week?

Wait, he's at the political sh!tstorm and is vanishing from view again? No way?!

 

[highflyer]

deleted duplicate post

 

[highflyer]

There was a lot more evidence behind the claim that Johnson is a racist and an Islamophobe than there was behind the one that Corbyn is an antisemite. That was in part because Johnson is far more effective in playing the media game, in part because the Tories were much better organised, and in part because the media are what they are in this country.

edit: Why am I double posting everything?

 

[highflyer]

I don’t doubt what you say about the Tory party although I am interested to see your evidence that it is more hatred filled than that described by Luciana Berger (many sources on the internet for this). That is engaging very directly with your point. If you read my post again I did explicitly say that Corbyn’s anti semitism came from a lack of understanding. I don’t for a minute doubt his good intentions but unfortunately the effect on the Jewish community is much the same as the ridiculing of the Islamic community displayed in some of Boris Johnson’s comments.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/the-tory-party-suspended-14-members-over-islamophobia
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-muslim-minister-emails-praising-enoch-powell
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rvative-councillors-islamophobic-social-media
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-suspended-over-racist-and-inflammatory-posts
https://twitter.com/MuslimCouncil/status/1199293555124178945?s=20

Two wrongs don't make a right.
But racism, anti-semitism and islamophobia don't seem to be restricted to any one party.

 

[clapham_gull]

A "which is the more racist party" competition is irrelevant really.

When a party moves to a harder right position it is unfortunately expected, but when it moves to the left very much less so.

That was Corbyn's problem really and those that were guilty off it. They couldn't reconcile being left wing and anti-Semitic.

But I was surprised by Corbyn's surprise.

You don't need a degree in history to know that anti-Semitism historically has existed in socialist / anti-capitalism / communist circles as well as the far right of course.

This time is was an odd fusion of anti-capitalism, anti Israel and conspiracy theory for the modern day. I've read some of it online and often it was utterly bonkers.

 

[Machiavelli]

A "which is the more racist party" competition is irrelevant really.

When a party moves to a harder right position it is unfortunately expected, but when it moves to the left very much less so.

That was Corbyn's problem really and those that were guilty off it. They couldn't reconcile being left wing and anti-Semitic.

But I was surprised by Corbyn's surprise.

You don't need a degree in history to know that anti-Semitism historically has existed in socialist / anti-capitalism / communist circles as well as the far right of course.

This time is was an odd fusion of anti-capitalism, anti Israel and conspiracy theory for the modern day. I've read some of it online and often it was utterly bonkers.

Yup, agree completely with this.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The problem of course is where those 380 and 150 overlap.

Both parties think they can win those seats, so neither stands down, and then the Tories get in in with less votes than those two together.

Except that the Lib Dems probably would stand aside if the Labour candidate was more aligned with the views of, say, Chuka Umunna than John MacDonald.

Both Labour and Lib Dems have 2 years to get their shit together over this. The Lib Dems would happily be the junior party in a coalition if it meant the end of FPTP and working with a party more closely aligned to their core values than the Tories of 2010. For their part, Labour would get back into power and regain credibility.

Indeed, Labour will not want to be in coalition with the SNP because that could come with strings attached, i.e. IndyRef 2, and I imagine Starmer would rather be in control of the independence issue, rather than pay such a price for government.

For the Lib Dems, without Labour then every seat they fight they will feel they have a chance of winning, and so a vote for them will not be a wasted vote. This is massive, as it overcomes their historically biggest hurdle, which is both big parties ganging up on them and trying to convince the electorate a vote for Lib Dems is a wasted vote.

Lastly, there is talk of Corbyn forming his own party which would hive off 5-6% of Labour's vote. So whatever way you dice it, Labour need to be working with the Lib Dems in order to regain power.

 

[Poojah]

Boris Johnson must be thanking the Gods tonight for the gift that is Prince Andrew.

 

[Eric the meek]

Im more dumbfounded by your dumbfoundedness.

Of course he's deluded, the man has never ever taken responsibility for any of his previous acts.
He's wafted through life on a wave of money, connections and pseudo intellect.

Hes just the fall guy for all his 'friends' who have bled the country dry.

I probably wasn't clear enough.

My dumbfoundedness/incredulity stems from the fact that, in a febrile atmosphere in which numerous people, from both sides of the House, are calling for him to go, the gravamen of their anger being that he misled the house, he has managed to do it again, this time with a disingenuous apology! An apology which he effectively retracted in the Commons tea room after his mea culpa. I find it extraordinary. I've obviously led a sheltered life.

 

[The Clamp]

He’s in hiding for a week now. The man knows no shame.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

He’s in hiding for a week now. The man knows no shame.

Hopefully there will be another new revelation on Sunday so that he'll have to face more music when he comes out of hiding.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Hopefully there will be another new revelation on Sunday so that he'll have to face more music when he comes out of hiding.

Drip, drip, drip, probably plenty more to come.
Sue Gray answers to the head of the civil service who in turn answers to the PM.
Given Johnsons record and his desperation to cling on to power and as much as we are told that Gray is a tough cookie, I find it implausible that pressure will not be put on both of them to get Johnson off the hook.
And we have the ridiculously late Covid investigation to come yet another kick it into the long grass exercise in the hope that people will either forget or not care.

 

[drew]

Drip, drip, drip, probably plenty more to come.
Sue Gray answers to the head of the civil service who in turn answers to the PM.
Given Johnsons record and his desperation to cling on to power and as much as we are told that Gray is a tough cookie, I find it implausible that pressure will not be put on both of them to get Johnson off the hook.
And we have the ridiculously late Covid investigation to come yet another kick it into the long grass exercise in the hope that people will either forget or not care.

Hasn't Sue Gray got a reputation for telling special advisors how to completely delete emails to avoid releasing information for Freedom of Information requests?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Drip, drip, drip, probably plenty more to come.
Sue Gray answers to the head of the civil service who in turn answers to the PM.
Given Johnsons record and his desperation to cling on to power and as much as we are told that Gray is a tough cookie, I find it implausible that pressure will not be put on both of them to get Johnson off the hook.
And we have the ridiculously late Covid investigation to come yet another kick it into the long grass exercise in the hope that people will either forget or not care.

I fully expect that Gray will be getting the whitewash out.

 

[clapham_gull]

They still haven't fully explained who stayed over at Number 11 Christmas day.....

 

[vegster]

This makes interesting listening if you don't have your scarf to tightly knotted....https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/analysis-of-choices-facing-boris-johnson-over-no10-booze-up/