[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

[hans kraay fan club]

Disappointing from a mod.

That was an insult to many, not me.


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Whatever.

Johnson and his morality vacuum of a government are trampling on our democratic process, and taking us all for utter, utter mugs. If anyone who voted for them, or continues to defend them, is a tiny bit offended by being reminded of their part in enabling it all, I’ll lose no sleep over it.

Sorry, if you think that’s unbecoming of a moderator. Much as it annoys some, we are actually allowed to have an opinion, too.

 

[drew]

In fairness to you, the Labour alternative in Corbyn was not very appealing if you are not left wing, the real issue is the MP's and members that gave him the leadership, they asked themselves only, could he win the next election, and give them their seats, and they ignored the red flags all around him showing how unsuitable he would be for the job.

Another way of looking at it is blaming the Labour MPs who gave Corbyn a platform and ultimately the leadership which meant there was a choice of Corbyn and Johnson. With Brexit unresolved at the time, there was only ever going to be one winner.

 

[Baldseagull]

Another way of looking at it is blaming the Labour MPs who gave Corbyn a platform and ultimately the leadership which meant there was a choice of Corbyn and Johnson. With Brexit unresolved at the time, there was only ever going to be one winner.

Corbyn was the least backed nominee by Labour MP's, it was the members, some of whom joined, just in order to vote for Corbyn, that really backed Corbyn for leader.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I’d imagine this will focus a few minds in the Tory ranks…

[tweet]1481392326241132563[/tweet]

What that poll says to me:

1. The Tories got 31.4% of the vote in the 1997 General Election and were routed, so 28% is a disaster.
2. The Tories drop 5% points and yet Labour only goes up by 1%. The chief beneficiaries are the Lib Dems, who are up by 3%. Even the Reform Party dropped by 1%. Is this a sign that, actually, Brexit is not going as well as some Tory voters were expecting?
3. If Labour struggle to pass 40% then they may struggle to gain an outright majority, so this poll lends itself to an electoral pact with the Lib Dems. That's two-thirds of voters intending to vote for one of the 'Progressive Alliance' parties, with Tory/Reform on one-third. That's as big a gulf as I can remember for a very long time.

 

[BadFish]

In fairness to you, the Labour alternative in Corbyn was not very appealing if you are not left wing, the real issue is the MP's and members that gave him the leadership, they asked themselves only, could he win the next election, and give them their seats, and they ignored the red flags all around him showing how unsuitable he would be for the job.

If Corbyn had red flags about his leadership qualities then surely Johnson's were bigger . . . and accompanied by siren . . . and flashing lights,

Ultimately the British public had a choice between two scruffy blokes, one who looked like he was keen to represent the needs of the masses and one who has a consistent track record of representing the few. On who seemed honest and decent and one who had a track record of being corrupt and a liar. One who had question marks over his ability to lead and one who had proven time and again that he was incompetent.

This list could got on.

Of course the elephant in the room is Brexit. One wonders how things would have turned out without that particular shambles dominating the political landscape.

You chose Ronseal and now you are getting exactly what it said on the tin. Would a Corbyn government have been worse? The papers would have told you so but surely as an electorate you are now ready to try something different?

Only time will tell I suppose.

 

[Baldseagull]

If Corbyn had red flags about his leadership qualities then surely Johnson's were bigger . . . and accompanied by siren . . . and flashing lights,

Ultimately the British public had a choice between two scruffy blokes, one who looked like he was keen to represent the needs of the masses and one who has a consistent track record of representing the few. On who seemed honest and decent and one who had a track record of being corrupt and a liar. One who had question marks over his ability to lead and one who had proven time and again that he was incompetent.

This list could got on.

Of course the elephant in the room is Brexit. One wonders how things would have turned out without that particular shambles dominating the political landscape.

You chose Ronseal and now you are getting exactly what it said on the tin. Would a Corbyn government have been worse? The papers would have told you so but surely as an electorate you are now ready to try something different?

Only time will tell I suppose.

I worded my post badly, it needed the context of previous posts to make the sense that I intended, I was refering to Johnson as having clear red flags.
I voted Labour, Corbyn was too far left for the majority though, and had shown a few weaknesses as a leader. I like him, but I don't think he would have been a good PM, better than Johnson by a mile, but still not a good PM.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Disappointing from a mod.

That was an insult to many, not me.


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Yep, an insult to me amongst others. It’s the type of arrogance that generates a **** you response rather than the one they want.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Thing is I don't understand why the price of gas is going up in the EU when there is less demand for gas in the EU. Surely if demand is decreasing then the price should reflect that decreased demand?

I did see this article, that suggested the first half of the year demand was up on 2020, but that was due to a cold winter and that 2020 was a low demand year.



https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...n-q1-up-76-on-year-on-heating-power-demand-ec

I don't see in the data, or words, anything to suggest we are having to rely more on gas for power, as a result of windfarms or shut down coal fired power stations.

Again in that article



Maybe that's an issue, and this:

I don’t think I have explained myself very well, sorry. What I am trying to say is that coal fired power stations have been shut down very quickly and renewables are increasingly being called on by National grids. That is a good thing. Ultimately it is the cheapest form of energy. However at the moment it is not sufficient to replace coal. The obvious fallback is an increase in gas fired power but stocks are very low and Russia is not booking export capacity via the Ukraine as expected. They say this is because of a big post Covid demand increase in Russia itself which may be partly true. Also though they are playing politics to try to force German approval of Nordstream 2. Couple this with Asian and South American buyers outbidding Europe in LNG and you have a very tight market. Demand for this shortfall is certainly there as stocks need to be replenished for next winter but all that is happening is a price squeeze as buyers try to outbid each other for scarce supply. Interestingly as well coal is actually making a comeback as countries (apart from Germany) halt the shutdowns and there is little let up in demand from Asia. The other consequence is that nuclear power is also being discussed as France has retained this capacity and does not face the same problems as the rest of Europe.

This article perhaps explains it better;

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fort...er-imaging-it-would-one-day-stop-blowing/amp/

 

[Simster]

Charming.


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No less charming than your pathetic faux outrage at his perfectly reasonable point.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Yep, an insult to me amongst others. It’s the type of arrogance that generates a **** you response rather than the one they want.

What response do you think I want?

I’ve plenty of sympathy for people who were hoodwinked by the lies, or scared by the press into voting for this mob of chancers.

But IF you are someone who continues even now, to support them, defend them or make excuses for their proven dishonest, corrupt, undemocratic behaviour, then I’m quite comfortable with you taking offence at my assessment, and am really not interested in any kind of response. You’d be literally beyond reason.

 

[Berty23]

It’s quite revealing that today’s defence of Johnson is that starmer also had drinks at work. It is amazing that people fall for this stuff. It was a year apart. The rules in May 2021 were different to may 2020. Starmer was at work and Was taking part in some zoom meeting. The false equivalence with a party invite going to 100 people is incredible. I find it mind blowing that people think this is even close to comparable. I guess some people are so desperate to pretend what happened is fine that they drift into extreme whataboutary. Comical.

In any walk of life the leaders set the tone and have to lead by example. Imagine dunk as our captain going mental at players for not working hard enough and shirking challenges and then doing the same himself. He would be binned as captain. In the military you only ask your people to do things you would be prepared to do yourself etc etc.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

There is still a lot of time for the Tories to regroup under a new leader until we have a sniff at another General Election.

 

[Bozza]

If people are going to play the "it's your fault we've got Johnson" blame game, I hope they're also going to be targetting those who repeatedly played Corbyn as a credible PM candidate when it was obvious to most he was about an uncredible as you could get.

By being hoodwinked into believing Corbyn had any chance of getting to Number 10, they allowed Johnson the free pass to waltz there pretty much unchallenged.

(Reminder: I did not vote for, nor could I ever vote for Johnson. Neither did I, nor could I, vote for Corbyn)

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

What response do you think I want?

I’ve plenty of sympathy for people who were hoodwinked by the lies, or scared by the press into voting for this mob of chancers.

But IF you are someone who continues even now, to support them, defend them or make excuses for their proven dishonest, corrupt, undemocratic behaviour, then I’m quite comfortable with you taking offence at my assessment, and am really not interested in any kind of response. You’d be literally beyond reason.

I wasn’t hoodwinked. I voted Tory because they were prepared to follow through with leaving the EU and because I did not believe in Labour’s agenda. That is my view and I make my own mind up about current events and the new labour leader without your help.

 

[Happy Exile]

What that poll says to me:

1. The Tories got 31.4% of the vote in the 1997 General Election and were routed, so 28% is a disaster.
2. The Tories drop 5% points and yet Labour only goes up by 1%. The chief beneficiaries are the Lib Dems, who are up by 3%. Even the Reform Party dropped by 1%. Is this a sign that, actually, Brexit is not going as well as some Tory voters were expecting?
3. If Labour struggle to pass 40% then they may struggle to gain an outright majority, so this poll lends itself to an electoral pact with the Lib Dems. That's two-thirds of voters intending to vote for one of the 'Progressive Alliance' parties, with Tory/Reform on one-third. That's as big a gulf as I can remember for a very long time.

What I always find interesting on that 2nd point is that the Lib Dems actually grew their vote by 1.3 million at the last election yet it was seen as a disaster for them, while the Tories only grew theirs by 300,000 - it's only the vagaries of our political system that meant the Lib Dems lost a seat while the Tories won nearly 50 more. (It's also interesting to note the Greens got as many extra votes as the Tories did, but no extra seats.) Can we take a voting intention poll as representative unless it takes into account constituencies? If you're cunning like the Tories you can play the strategy so minimal increase in support disproportionately impacts outcome - more than half the country voted for parties to the centre/left of the Tories at the last election, yet Parliament doesn't in any way reflect that national sentiment, if anything policies go the opposite direction to how the majority voted.

The Tories are like a unified group of ideologies to the centre/right that argues with itself a lot until there's an election when they come together to beat the left as much as to win, and the only way they'll be beaten is either a formal pact between all the centre/left parties or a Labour leader who can take votes off those parties (less and less likely in my humble opinion - people are becoming more entrenched). I guess a third option is if Labour can take votes of disillusioned Tories, but the ex-Tories I know choose not to vote or spoil their papers rather than vote for anyone else.

 

[nwgull]

I wasn’t hoodwinked. I voted Tory because they were prepared to follow through with leaving the EU and because I did not believe in Labour’s agenda. That is my view and I make my own mind up about current events and the new labour leader without your help.

Hoodwinked x2 then.

Brexit's going great, isn't it?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Hoodwinked x2 then.

Brexit's going great, isn't it?

Yes

 

[dazzer6666]

If people are going to play the "it's your fault we've got Johnson" blame game, I hope they're also going to be targetting those who repeatedly played Corbyn as a credible PM candidate when it was obvious to most he was about an uncredible as you could get.

By being hoodwinked into believing Corbyn had any chance of getting to Number 10, they allowed Johnson the free pass to waltz there pretty much unchallenged.

(Reminder: I did not and could never vore for Johnson. Nor did I, nor could I, vote for Corbyn)

Bit of a Hobson’s choice at the time wasn’t it for anyone undecided………..’vote for the least shit/dangerous/incompetent’.

Interesting that Sunak is keeping his distance from all this, and offered pretty lukewarm comments yesterday without endorsing Johnson.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

What I always find interesting on that 2nd point is that the Lib Dems actually grew their vote by 1.3 million at the last election yet it was seen as a disaster for them, while the Tories only grew theirs by 300,000 - it's only the vagaries of our political system that meant the Lib Dems lost a seat while the Tories won nearly 50 more. (It's also interesting to note the Greens got as many extra votes as the Tories did, but no extra seats.) Can we take a voting intention poll as representative unless it takes into account constituencies? If you're cunning like the Tories you can play the strategy so minimal increase in support disproportionately impacts outcome - more than half the country voted for parties to the centre/left of the Tories at the last election, yet Parliament doesn't in any way reflect that national sentiment, if anything policies go the opposite direction to how the majority voted.

The Tories are like a unified group of ideologies to the centre/right that argues with itself a lot until there's an election when they come together to beat the left as much as to win, and the only way they'll be beaten is either a formal pact between all the centre/left parties or a Labour leader who can take votes off those parties (less and less likely in my humble opinion - people are becoming more entrenched). I guess a third option is if Labour can take votes of disillusioned Tories, but the ex-Tories I know choose not to vote or spoil their papers rather than vote for anyone else.

You've got to love First Past the Post, if you're a Tory, SNP or sometimes Labour supporter.

 

[Bozza]

Bit of a Hobson’s choice at the time wasn’t it for anyone undecided………..’vote for the least shit/dangerous/incompetent’.

Absolutely, yes.

But thart doesnt escape the fact that many of those on the left (although not all, by any stretch) seemed to believe that Corbyn could be seen as credible by the electorate. That would be hilarious, if it were not for what has transpired since.

Still, I guess it's easier to throw mud towards the right if it distracts from failings closer to home.