The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[cunning fergus]

View attachment 72741

This looks like fun.

Indeed, the economy could well do with sustainable inflation and sharply rising labour costs.........imagine that sharply rising labour costs, what a terrible consequence for workers.....higher pay.

Higher pay for workers is the kind of consequence that pro EU Tories like you who are continually sucking each other off with various different economic analysis and corporate forecasts are actually frightened of.

It is a hard fact my young Tory friend that a free market in anything will not deliver social justice, markets must be controlled.

The U.K. cannot control its labour market, ergo for those at the bottom of the scale, and that need the most protection, they are cast to the wind. This is why the EU is good for Tories.

If you cared about the plight of the poor, you would understand how you can empower the poor in a labour market environment, first of all though you need to understand how the poor in this country were a long time ago forced to accept a MAXIMUM wage by their powerful employers.

The poor rightly revolted and the rich and powerful shit their pants............it's why the poor should do again and vote out. Making HSBC's board shit their pants is no bad thing.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Another EU clanger, madness. The EU doesn't need more people
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ed-uncountable-influx-Turkey-visa-free-travel

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Indeed, the economy could well do with sustainable inflation and sharply rising labour costs.........imagine that sharply rising labour costs, what a terrible consequence for workers.....higher pay.

Higher pay for workers is the kind of consequence that pro EU Tories like you who are continually sucking each other off with various different economic analysis and corporate forecasts are actually frightened of.

It is a hard fact my young Tory friend that a free market in anything will not deliver social justice, markets must be controlled.

The U.K. cannot control its labour market, ergo for those at the bottom of the scale, and that need the most protection, they are cast to the wind. This is why the EU is good for Tories.

If you cared about the plight of the poor, you would understand how you can empower the poor in a labour market environment, first of all though you need to understand how the poor in this country were a long time ago forced to accept a MAXIMUM wage by their powerful employers.

The poor rightly revolted and the rich and powerful shit their pants............it's why the poor should do again and vote out. Making HSBC's board shit their pants is no bad thing.

...and imagine what sharply rising labour costs combined with our traditional low productivity would do for our already dismal trade deficit. And before you go off on a tangent no one's arguing for race-to-the-bottom pay cuts or for the notion that free markets don't need controls. Pay and productivity in this country both need to be higher and to the best of my knowledge no one on here has ever suggested that markets don't need controlling. Not even UKIP's right wing argues for that. However, labour costs rising sharply in isolation can have only one result and it isn't one the poorest in society would welcome. You obviously know 5ways very well because you describe him as your 'young tory friend'. Please don't describe me that way because you'd be wrong on all three counts. But perhaps you don't know him at all. Perhaps you just enjoy being glutinously patronising.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Another EU clanger, madness. The EU doesn't need more people
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ed-uncountable-influx-Turkey-visa-free-travel

Oh my, we've descended to quoting the Express. (Tomorrow's exclusive revelation - Bus found on Moon.)

 

[cunning fergus]

...and imagine what sharply rising labour costs combined with our traditional low productivity would do for our already dismal trade deficit. And before you go off on a tangent no one's arguing for race-to-the-bottom pay cuts or for the notion that free markets don't need controls. Pay and productivity in this country both need to be higher and to the best of my knowledge no one on here has ever suggested that markets don't need controlling. Not even UKIP's right wing argues for that. However, labour costs rising sharply in isolation can have only one result and it isn't one the poorest in society would welcome. You obviously know 5ways very well because you describe him as your 'young tory friend'. Please don't describe me that way because you'd be wrong on all three counts. But perhaps you don't know him at all. Perhaps you just enjoy being glutinously patronising.

People like you live in a fantasy world.

The FREE movement of labour within the EU means there is NO control on the UK's labour market; ergo the UK Government can do nothing to manage the effects of supply and demand, this is what drives labour costs........it's well understood what the impact of this is on the low paid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34397256

When organisations like HSBC highlight rising labour costs as a threat connected to Brexit, then I know what side I need to support to prevent the British working class is this country being f*cked over by (supposedly) Labour and Tory politicians for another 19 years.

5ways, you and others like you can put up your mercantilist arguments concerning the effect of Brexit on trade and business, and we have had that for years about the benefits of the EU. As it stands we have devastating levels of unemployment in many EU states, the erosion of workers rights and the advance of austerity, all supported by the likes of HSBC.

You may not think you are a Tory, but you are are, it's not the working classes clamouring for more workers to compete with, it's monetarists, capitalists, Tories and their HSBC supporting shills.

If the top hat fits.........

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Oh my, we've descended to quoting the Express. (Tomorrow's exclusive revelation - Bus found on Moon.)

Notice not many other media sources are picking this story up, it's because they don't want any more bad news, people might become enlightened and mark the box Leave on the voting slip, we can't have that. The establishment treat everyone like sheep in this country and people wonder why things never get any better.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Notice not many other media sources are picking this story up, it's because they don't want any more bad news, people might become enlightened and mark the box Leave on the voting slip, we can't have that. The establishment treat everyone like sheep in this country and people wonder why things never get any better.

But this is an ancient story. This is from the Telegraph last year: "Turkish citizens will be allowed visa-free access to continental Europe as part of a deal which could see the country join the EU in exchange for helping with the migrant crisis."

Turkey has been trying to join the EU for years, so there is nothing much more in this agreement than negotiations will continue. The visa-free aspect is not really significant either - dozens of countries allow visitors to enter without buying visas.

But to repeat myself, this is an old story. The Express pulls these things out of the cupboard whenever it wants to up the ante, garishly embellishing them and hoping to terrify its generally old readers.

Your suggestion that the media tends to be anti-Brexit surprises me. Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Times...

 

[Lincoln Imp]

People like you live in a fantasy world.

The FREE movement of labour within the EU means there is NO control on the UK's labour market; ergo the UK Government can do nothing to manage the effects of supply and demand, this is what drives labour costs........it's well understood what the impact of this is on the low paid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34397256

When organisations like HSBC highlight rising labour costs as a threat connected to Brexit, then I know what side I need to support to prevent the British working class is this country being f*cked over by (supposedly) Labour and Tory politicians for another 19 years.

5ways, you and others like you can put up your mercantilist arguments concerning the effect of Brexit on trade and business, and we have had that for years about the benefits of the EU. As it stands we have devastating levels of unemployment in many EU states, the erosion of workers rights and the advance of austerity, all supported by the likes of HSBC.

You may not think you are a Tory, but you are are, it's not the working classes clamouring for more workers to compete with, it's monetarists, capitalists, Tories and their HSBC supporting shills.

If the top hat fits.........

Well of course the free movement of labour within any geographic area means that there is no way of controlling the numbers of available workers in any particular part of that area. That's why there have always been Irish workers in southern England and that's why there are now Romanians too. I thought everyone knew that. It's a basic principle of the EU and I understand that many people don't like it. Some people don't like it a lot, and that's when the name-calling starts.

But the point I was making was a less general one. It was that if labour costs rise without reference to productivity then so will the cost of services and products - and the people who suffer most from that are generally the poorest.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The Eurosceptic map of Britain

Brighton & Hove leaning Europhile, West and East Sussex leaning Eurosceptic. West Sussex more Eurosceptic than East Sussex, England more Eurosceptic than Scotland or Wales. If the UK votes stay by a narrow margin is it OK for England to call for a different sort of Independence referendum? ... if it's good enough for the Scots.

https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/02/28/eurosceptic-map-britain/

 

[Lincoln Imp]

That map is fascinating - thanks for posting. As you suggest, if this prediction is true both Scotland and Wales will find themselves removed from the EU against their wishes. If that happens, asking your average Scotsman if he would prefer to be ruled fairly tightly by 'Westminster Tories' or fairly loosely by 'Brussels bureaucrats' would be an interesting question to ask. And asked it probably would be.

 

[gregbrighton]

UK out of EU. Scotland out of UK. Perfick!

 

[cunning fergus]

Well of course the free movement of labour within any geographic area means that there is no way of controlling the numbers of available workers in any particular part of that area. That's why there have always been Irish workers in southern England and that's why there are now Romanians too. I thought everyone knew that. It's a basic principle of the EU and I understand that many people don't like it. Some people don't like it a lot, and that's when the name-calling starts.

But the point I was making was a less general one. It was that if labour costs rise without reference to productivity then so will the cost of services and products - and the people who suffer most from that are generally the poorest.

This is woeful whataboutery Margaret. Are you seriously saying that the historic relationship the UK has with Ireland in terms of Irish workers being able to work in the UK lead to EXACTLY the same implications on pay, housing and public services as we have seen in the last 15 years since the UK has adopted (a) a generally lax immigration policy for non EU citizens, and (b) any EU citizen can mover here to work without a by-your-leave?

You think that Burnham and Cooper were wrong when they conceded that British workers have had pay undercut?

You previously argued that nobody would argue for uncontrolled markets, and yet that is EXACTLY what the UK labour market is for EU citizens. Or put another way, the UK is just part of the EU's labour market, UK citizens are EU citizens, they have no right to protection for their pay to any other EU citizen that turns up to compete for their job.

Free markets are Tory wet dreams, they will never stop arguing for more freedom for the markets.

Its what you are arguing for now, saying its OK to allow millions of EU citizens here to work as they have in recent years............a vote for in is a vote for a free labour market. It f*cked the British working class in this country for the last few years, and you want that to continue.

Not a tory?

I should coco.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

What a surprise I live in one of the top ten eurosceptic regions. The irony there as that even the most benefit hungry Romanians refuse to live in Southend.

It's populated very much by the white flight from the east end.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That map is fascinating - thanks for posting. As you suggest, if this prediction is true both Scotland and Wales will find themselves removed from the EU against their wishes. If that happens, asking your average Scotsman if he would prefer to be ruled fairly tightly by 'Westminster Tories' or fairly loosely by 'Brussels bureaucrats' would be an interesting question to ask. And asked it probably would be.

Your welcome. I have never understood how a nationalist party can be anti UK but pro EU. If you want true self determination opposition to both must be the only principled position to take. Anyone would think the SNP and many of it's supporters are just anti English but use the word 'Westminster' to hide their prejudice.

What a surprise I live in one of the top ten eurosceptic regions. The irony there as that even the most benefit hungry Romanians refuse to live in Southend.

It's populated very much by the white flight from the east end.

That's an interesting point. I often hear the argument that people living in areas with little immigration who favour border controls are misinformed or some how prejudiced. Perhaps many people have deliberately moved to less diverse areas exactly because they have seen the effects of mass immigration at first hand. In addition some of the same people who dismiss their fellow citizens views as misinformed or prejudiced have not seen the impact on local communities and services. I see Peterborough is near the top of the Eurosceptic list I wonder if Brighton & Hove would be leaning towards a Europhile stance if they had experienced the full effects of mass EU migration.

 

[heathgate]

That map is fascinating - thanks for posting. As you suggest, if this prediction is true both Scotland and Wales will find themselves removed from the EU against their wishes. If that happens, asking your average Scotsman if he would prefer to be ruled fairly tightly by 'Westminster Tories' or fairly loosely by 'Brussels bureaucrats' would be an interesting question to ask. And asked it probably would be.

That's a loaded question of course....and there is nothing loose about EU regulation...it's binding.... with the current Scottish parliament, and Westminster, at least you would have a democratic say in a post EU scenario.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

This is woeful whataboutery Margaret. Are you seriously saying that the historic relationship the UK has with Ireland in terms of Irish workers being able to work in the UK lead to EXACTLY the same implications on pay, housing and public services as we have seen in the last 15 years since the UK has adopted (a) a generally lax immigration policy for non EU citizens, and (b) any EU citizen can mover here to work without a by-your-leave?

You think that Burnham and Cooper were wrong when they conceded that British workers have had pay undercut?

You previously argued that nobody would argue for uncontrolled markets, and yet that is EXACTLY what the UK labour market is for EU citizens. Or put another way, the UK is just part of the EU's labour market, UK citizens are EU citizens, they have no right to protection for their pay to any other EU citizen that turns up to compete for their job.

Free markets are Tory wet dreams, they will never stop arguing for more freedom for the markets.

Its what you are arguing for now, saying its OK to allow millions of EU citizens here to work as they have in recent years............a vote for in is a vote for a free labour market. It f*cked the British working class in this country for the last few years, and you want that to continue.

Not a tory?

I should coco.

Oh good grief. Either I am a terrible writer or you are wilfully misinterpreting things. To take your paragraphs in order...

1. I was perfectly clear. People move around when the regulations allow it. I mentioned Irish people in southern England but could equally have mentioned Yorkshiremen. Your suggestion that I was discussing implications on pay, housing, etc is a figment of your imagination. It was not in my mind and it was not in my post. So the direct answer to your question is, er, NO.

2. Again, no. Although Burnham's reference to 'British' workers was probably an example of Andy Burnham being passionate about whatever he thinks his listeners want to hear. If a labour pool is larger then, everything else being equal, pressure on ALL employees; pay will be downwards, including that of incomers. As someone who have been self-employed for 25 years I might understand that better than some. You don't have to be 'working class' to be affected by it, just as you don't have to be middle class to benefit from it.

3. Labour markets are not uncontrolled but they are, like those of all EU states, open.

Can you please take my last post, the one that launched the outburst above, and tell me exactly what I said that leads you to believe I am a wet-dreams Tory. Or something. But do it properly this time. Don't read things that aren't there.

 

[heathgate]

Your welcome. I have never understood how a nationalist party can be anti UK but pro EU. If you want true self determination opposition to both must be the only principled position to take. Anyone would think the SNP and many of it's supporters are just anti English but use the word 'Westminster' to hide their prejudice.



That's an interesting point. I often hear the argument that people living in areas with little immigration who favour border controls are misinformed or some how prejudiced. Perhaps many people have deliberately moved to less diverse areas exactly because they have seen the effects of mass immigration at first hand. In addition some of the same people who dismiss their fellow citizens views as misinformed or prejudiced have not seen the impact on local communities and services. I see Peterborough is near the top of the Eurosceptic list I wonder if Brighton & Hove would be leaning towards a Europhile stance if they had experienced the full effects of mass EU migration.

The working class demographic of the traditional old 'east end' has swung hugely in favour of non-white commu ities now... huge populations of indigenous British have moved to the county towns of Essex and even Suffolk. I have friends who lived for 30 years in Colchester area... they say that the majority of the new people there are West Ham fans.... the demographic is hugely different to when they first moved from Hove in the 80's.

 

[Norman Potting]

..I just want someone to make it all stop!

 

[5ways]

Government report published today lays out the reality in black and white. Brexit is both reckless and harmful.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...dels_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU_Accessible.pdf

From the executive summary:
"

These models offer different balances in terms of advantages, obligations and influence. If the result of the referendum were a vote to leave, we would seek the best possible balance of advantage for the UK. However, regardless of the preferred outcome that the UK
seeks, the precedents clearly indicate that we would need to make a number of trade-offs:

• in return for full access to the EU’s free-trade Single Market in key UK industries, we would have to accept the free movement of people;

• access to the Single Market would require us to implement its rules. But from outside, the UK would no longer have a vote on these rules. And there is no
guarantee that we could fully replicate our existing cooperation in other areas, suchas cross-border action against criminals;

• full access to the Single Market would require us to continue to contribute to the EU’s programmes and budget;

• an approach based on a Free Trade Agreement would not come with the same level of obligations, but would mean UK companies had reduced access to the Single
Market in key sectors such as services (almost 80 per cent of the UK economy),1 and would face higher costs;

• we would lose our preferential access to 53 markets outside the EU with which the EU has Free Trade Agreements. This would take years to renegotiate, with no
guarantee that the UK would obtain terms as good as those we enjoy today; and

• in order to maintain the rights of UK citizens living, working and travelling in other EU countries, we would almost certainly have to accept reciprocal arrangements for their
citizens in the UK. "

It goes on to unpick the delusions of the Canada, WTO, Norway and Swiss models none of which give us the comparable economic advantage we currently enjoy. Knocks Boris' pro-cake, pro-eating it policy with some plain facts.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Government report published today lays out the reality in black and white. Brexit is both reckless and harmful.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...dels_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU_Accessible.pdf

From the executive summary:
"

These models offer different balances in terms of advantages, obligations and influence. If the result of the referendum were a vote to leave, we would seek the best possible balance of advantage for the UK. However, regardless of the preferred outcome that the UK
seeks, the precedents clearly indicate that we would need to make a number of trade-offs:

• in return for full access to the EU’s free-trade Single Market in key UK industries, we would have to accept the free movement of people;

• access to the Single Market would require us to implement its rules. But from outside, the UK would no longer have a vote on these rules. And there is no
guarantee that we could fully replicate our existing cooperation in other areas, suchas cross-border action against criminals;

• full access to the Single Market would require us to continue to contribute to the EU’s programmes and budget;

• an approach based on a Free Trade Agreement would not come with the same level of obligations, but would mean UK companies had reduced access to the Single
Market in key sectors such as services (almost 80 per cent of the UK economy),1 and would face higher costs;

• we would lose our preferential access to 53 markets outside the EU with which the EU has Free Trade Agreements. This would take years to renegotiate, with no
guarantee that the UK would obtain terms as good as those we enjoy today; and

• in order to maintain the rights of UK citizens living, working and travelling in other EU countries, we would almost certainly have to accept reciprocal arrangements for their
citizens in the UK. "

It goes on to unpick the delusions of the Canada, WTO, Norway and Swiss models none of which give us the comparable economic advantage we currently enjoy. Knocks Boris' pro-cake, pro-eating it policy with some plain facts.

Clearly there are risks to the economy of Britain leaving. It does, however, strike me that all of these points are impossible to truly quantify. As the worlds fifth largest economy who currently has a trade imbalance with continental Europe of €59bn in their favour it hardly seems credible that they would sacrifice all that lovely trade for spite?

The U.K. Economy is bigger than that of Norway, Switzerland, Sweden and Turkey COMBINED. It puts us in a totally different stratosphere of influence with our partners. Norway has warned us that trading with the EU disadvantages them but they are selling in some roll mop herring and woolly jumpers compared with us. Besides. If it's that awful for them why don't they...erm..join?

It boils down to factors far more subtle than these blunt arguments. Do we believe that the UK with its 1000 year history and having been the greatest nation on earth think that we are incapable of making very basic decisions about our law, our trade and our democracy and must cede them to a group of nations who, within living memory, have ripped each other to shreds forcing the English speaking world to force them apart and tell them to play nicely.

The U.K. Is a very powerful and highly regarded international force for good. Being shackled to Europe with its corruption, self interest, protectionism and failed economy and currency is an existential struggle as far as I'm concerned. Vote OUT.