The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Deleted member 22389]

Here is a tweet from Corbyn in 2011. I don't believe this man wants out whatsoever and you can forget reform from inside the EU, 6 years off watching endless debates has taught me it's the EU way or the highway.

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/145321643030495234

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm pretty confident I can tell you exactly how the trade arrangements with the EU will pan out if the UK votes to remain.

But you've selected one small element - care to tell us what the plans are around further fiscal union and even the dreaded political union. Or the plans of creating a single European Army under the control of the EU ?

At the moment all the press from the In camp is how the Out don't know what will happen if we leave - which is indeed true. Equally the In camp either aren't prepared to say or don't know what will happen if we stay in - a far more scary thought !

 

[Chief Wiggum]

Much to my astonishment, absolutely stunning performance by Iain Duncan Smith on the Andrew Marr programme.

 

[gregbrighton]

Way things are going Corbyn will be PM by Christmas

Very much doubt that. The establishment, elite bankers and the military industrial complex with the co-operatiln of the national media will stop that even if it means fixing the election.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Of course they can with the correct paperwork,
If most of the globe can cope with this system of permits and visas to live and work im sure you wont find it too taxing to get a work permit for Germany if there is a Brexit

This is brilliant news. My son rather fancies going to live and work in the USA. I like the look of Switzerland. My daughter is pretty keen on Australia. We'll send you postcards.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

My grandparents' generation fought in arguably the most pivotal war in history, paying a terrible price for victory. But why? So that we could retain the right to choose who governs us. So that power will rest with the people.

The politicians of this current generation are giving this power away, even though it's not their's to give.

If we fail to grasp the nettle in June and stop this rot, history will judge us very harshly for this missed opportunity.

I'll weep at the sight of a Lancaster bomber more quickly than most. I pay my National Trust subs and reckon Elgar wrote a pretty good tune. I have a strong sense of place and I'm so very pleased to be an Englishman. But my affection for my country hasn't been formed by Stafford Cripps and Anthony Eden, by Hugh Gaitskell and Gordon Brown and the rest of the suits that have run this island during my life. In fact they have let me down, consistently and regularly, as they make their wrong decisions and shout and scream abuse at each other in a parliament packed with time-servers who were hijacked by the party machines years ago. And as I ponder the possibility that those new atomic power stations that won't have Chinese involvement will be built by the French now that the Germans have have given them the OK I think I hear a stable door being shut. Perhaps that is sad, but our sense of nation will be no more destroyed by the EU than Scotland's was by centuries of being tied into a union far far tighter than the European Union is.

 

[heathgate]

I'll weep at the sight of a Lancaster bomber more quickly than most. I pay my National Trust subs and reckon Elgar wrote a pretty good tune. I have a strong sense of place and I'm so very pleased to be an Englishman. But my affection for my country hasn't been formed by Stafford Cripps and Anthony Eden, by Hugh Gaitskell and Gordon Brown and the rest of the suits that have run this island during my life. In fact they have let me down, consistently and regularly, as they make their wrong decisions and shout and scream abuse at each other in a parliament packed with time-servers who were hijacked by the party machines years ago. And as I ponder the possibility that those new atomic power stations that won't have Chinese involvement will be built by the French now that the Germans have have given them the OK I think I hear a stable door being shut. Perhaps that is sad, but our sense of nation will be no more destroyed by the EU than Scotland's was by centuries of being tied into a union far far tighter than the European Union is.

Difference is that all those failures you felt were foisted upon you and your lifestyle, could be changed by local and national elections. EU law cannot without getting the vote of Monsieur this and Frau that in a mixed up den of hidden political and social agendas...

 

[Igzilla]

Very much doubt that. The establishment, elite bankers and the military industrial complex with the co-operatiln of the national media will stop that even if it means fixing the election.

Which is ludicrously easy with our current system. A few hundred thousand votes in key marginals is enough to turn defeat into a landslide.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Of course they can with the correct paperwork,
If most of the globe can cope with this system of permits and visas to live and work im sure you wont find it too taxing to get a work permit for Germany if there is a Brexit

Ah, so you didn't mean freedom-of-movement all along. FFS.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

On page 23 I would still have the same answer I had then. That the UK has underperformed because our economy is skewed heavily away from exports and to services. What my links above do show is that the UK benefited from the liberalisation of trade which was suffocating the economy post-war and pre-Thatcher. The shackles came off and now we're more well-off than either France or Italy. The EU helped lift a miserable and insular fog (hyperbole is fun) that had descended on the UK economy after the collapse of preferable trading relationships with former colonies.

I don't think it's fair to bat away the view of these economists. As it says this is the consensus view and one even granted by out-er economists. Besides, there can only be one pre-eminent British economic historian so that has to count for something. I guess I'm a sucker for highly respected opinions.

As ever it is the choice of having a degree of influence and having none. I want a seat at the table. And actually I think we got quite a lot from the EU deal. As said before we have so many opt-outs, the Euro, Schegen, law and justice provisions and now we get more special treatment. Benefits staggering/indexed, protection for the City, no closer union. I think our northern friends like Denmark are probably a little jealous.

Also why is free movement a red line? Migration is a big deal but I don't know if it's a total red line.

And my link showed how independent nations apparently benefited more making there own trade deals rather than being locked in to a European deal where we had 'some' influence.

The pre Thatcher bit is interesting I thought we were in the EC before 1979. The radical transformation of the British economy was driven by Thatcherite policies. Yes she was a fan of a European free trade zone but not so much the bureaucracy, political project of ever closer union, and ever expanding interference and absorption of power to the centre. Hence the numerous opt outs. You claim these opt outs give us the best of both worlds I disagree I think they are just numerous examples of how our national interests constantly diverge from the central goal of the European project. There comes a point when you are seeking so many opt outs to the rules of a club you belong to you have to ask yourself is it really worth remaining any more. If the EC/EU had remained a trade focused organisation our membership would not even be an issue. But as you well know it is not.

It is indisputable that the driving force behind the EU is ever closer union not free trade which is why it has lost it's way despite our very limited influence. The Euro project is the prime example of this, a flawed concept unless you have all the other pillars of a Superstate in place. This crisis is holding Europe back and there is no sign of any solution in the near future. The only long term solutions are the creation of the Superstate or disintegration of the Eurozone leading to even more economic problems. As ever our degree of influence comes at a high price way to high in my opinion.

If we voted out one of the main reasons would be resistance to mass immigration and the Brexit campaign say we will regain control of our borders. If the post Brexit UK government did not then take action to restrict free movement which would bring down immigration numbers then they would pay a heavy price at the next election plus internal party division.

 

[pastafarian]

Ah, so you didn't mean freedom-of-movement all along. FFS.

Oh but I did,all be it the sensible version of it.

As I waited for 5 mins in the queue of traffic last week at the new border checks whilst driving into Belgium from France,I couldn’t help but think this freedom of movement rubbish(the version you adore) really is a ridiculous unworkable pipe dream. No wonder this concept is collapsing right across Europe.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Reality is, the country has gone very stale. It needs something new to reinvigorate it and the people, leaving the EU is a positive thing. I just don't see anything positive from staying in whatsoever.

 

[5ways]

And my link showed how independent nations apparently benefited more making there own trade deals rather than being locked in to a European deal where we had 'some' influence.

The pre Thatcher bit is interesting I thought we were in the EC before 1979. The radical transformation of the British economy was driven by Thatcherite policies. Yes she was a fan of a European free trade zone but not so much the bureaucracy, political project of ever closer union, and ever expanding interference and absorption of power to the centre. Hence the numerous opt outs. You claim these opt outs give us the best of both worlds I disagree I think they are just numerous examples of how our national interests constantly diverge from the central goal of the European project. There comes a point when you are seeking so many opt outs to the rules of a club you belong to you have to ask yourself is it really worth remaining any more. If the EC/EU had remained a trade focused organisation our membership would not even be an issue. But as you well know it is not.

It is indisputable that the driving force behind the EU is ever closer union not free trade which is why it has lost it's way despite our very limited influence. The Euro project is the prime example of this, a flawed concept unless you have all the other pillars of a Superstate in place. This crisis is holding Europe back and there is no sign of any solution in the near future. The only long term solutions are the creation of the Superstate or disintegration of the Eurozone leading to even more economic problems. As ever our degree of influence comes at a high price way to high in my opinion.

If we voted out one of the main reasons would be resistance to mass immigration and the Brexit campaign say we will regain control of our borders. If the post Brexit UK government did not then take action to restrict free movement which would bring down immigration numbers then they would pay a heavy price at the next election plus internal party division.

We were in the EEC prior to Thatcher but a combination of her policies and the freeing up of trade in Europe following the referendum worked in tandem I think it's fair to say. Thatcher in the end tolerated Europe while in office and made it work for the UK (rebate). She never threatened to leave the EU in office (unless I'm mistaken) and only said she would leave after the Maastricht Treaty. Yes the long-term goal for many is ever closer Union. But it's not for us - we have our special status and we've done well to leverage our threat to leave. I wonder what Thatcher would have made of DC's deal.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Oh but I did,all be it the sensible version of it.

As I waited for 5 mins in the queue of traffic last week at the new border checks whilst driving into Belgium from France,I couldn’t help but think this freedom of movement rubbish(the version you adore) really is a ridiculous unworkable pipe dream. No wonder this concept is collapsing right across Europe.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.

You seem to be talking about (or confusing) two, or possibly three, different things here. The freedom to live and work within the EU is not collapsing, nothing has changed for some time now. The live and work element I have been referring to is obviously enshrined in the over-riding movements rule but that's not what we have been discussing. What's this got to do with your border check? What are you referring to?

 

[beorhthelm]

Yes the long-term goal for many is ever closer Union. But it's not for us - we have our special status and we've done well to leverage our threat to leave. I wonder what Thatcher would have made of DC's deal.

we have no special status until is it written into the next treaty, otherwise the next (or subsequent) treaty can over rule it. agreements made over dinner, however well intentioned by all parties, do not super-cede ratified treaties.

 

[pastafarian]

You seem to be talking about (or confusing) two, or possibly three, different things here. The freedom to live and work within the EU is not collapsing, nothing has changed for some time now. The live and work element I have been referring to is obviously enshrined in the over-riding movements rule but that's not what we have been discussing. What's this got to do with your border check? What are you referring to?

You are obviously correct
Everything is operating as normal and everyone can still move about freely without border checks or passport controls as per the schengen agreement.
I must have imagined The Belgian bloke asking for my passport and searching my vehicle.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You are obviously correct
Everything is operating as normal and everyone can still move about freely without border checks or passport controls as per the schengen agreement.
I must have imagined The Belgian bloke asking for my passport and searching my vehicle.

Whatever.

 

[5ways]

This looks like fun.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Booo to project fear .... welcome to Project balance/realism

Firstly, what would the economic cost or benefit of leaving the EU be? Determining a precise cost will never be an exact science, but using a powerful trade modelling tool, one used in fact by the European Commission – The Global Trade Analysis Project (GTAP) – Open Europe has run the numbers for a number of different scenarios.

A worst case, where the UK leaves the EU and does not agree a continuity deal;

Two scenarios where the UK agrees a continuity deal but in one uses its new freedom to deregulate and reduce trade protectionism and one where it does not;

A ‘best’ case scenario where the UK strikes a good deal with the EU, deregulates, reduces protectionism opening up to cheaper imports from around the world, unilateral free trade.

http://www.conservativehome.com/pla...ne-but-it-would-mean-difficult-decisions.html

 

[sir albion]

Very well put