The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[cunning fergus]

But none of that is true is it. That's the point of the negotiations. We are opted out of all that.

And yet by being in a he EU we are opted in to negotiations on trade agreements like TTIP?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

None of our elected politicians are talking about this, Corbyn used to, but he appears to be in favour of NHS privatisation through the back door like Cameron.

If out means opting "out of all that" corporate bullshit like TTIP then what's not to like?

 

[gregbrighton]

And yet by being in a he EU we are opted in to negotiations on trade agreements like TTIP?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

None of our elected politicians are talking about this, Corbyn used to, but he appears to be in favour of NHS privatisation through the back door like Cameron.

If out means opting "out of all that" corporate bullshit like TTIP then what's not to like?

Exactly.

 

[Chief Wiggum]

Found this which makes interesting reading. Alleges that Cameron's deal cannot be binding and explains why.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85933

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85937

 

[Hamilton]

And yet by being in a he EU we are opted in to negotiations on trade agreements like TTIP?

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/22/ttip-deal-real-serious-risk-nhs-leading-qc

None of our elected politicians are talking about this, Corbyn used to, but he appears to be in favour of NHS privatisation through the back door like Cameron.

If out means opting "out of all that" corporate bullshit like TTIP then what's not to like?

I think you'll find Corbyn was talking about TTIP this very weekend.

You'll also find that the European Commission has stated that public services like the NHS are not to be included in TTIP.

As TTIP negotiations are still ongoing, they are an unknown. If we were to end up out of the EU we'd then have to negotiate our own trade agreements with the USA. I wonder how far we'd hang onto the trade principles we hold so dear when faced with the need to secure a free trade agreement ASAP?

 

[Bold Seagull]

No, on facts is fine, but not on the desperate spin of Dodgy Dave.

He did an appalling job on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday. Farage, a man I can happily disagree on just about anything, made a far more statesman like case for leaving, getting a strong point across. Our PM on the other hand came on dithering about how much he loves Britain, how scared we should be and we'll be safer in the EU...If that is the tact he is taking, then I'm expecting us to vote leave in the summer.

 

[Hamilton]

No, on facts is fine, but not on the desperate spin of Dodgy Dave.

But that's an emotive response from you. You have to base argument on facts and everything you had previously argued is bought into question by Cameron's deal. That's fair isn't it?

 

[Hamilton]

He did an appalling job on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday. Farage, a man I can happily disagree on just about anything, made a far more statesman like case for leaving, getting a strong point across. Our PM on the other hand came on dithering about how much he loves Britain, how scared we should be and we'll be safer in the EU...If that is the tact he is taking, then I'm expecting us to vote leave in the summer.

Sadly, we do have a bit of a wet blanket for PM. Let's see what other reasoned voices come out.

The CEO of Ford was on TV this morning saying that they would rather see the UK inside the EU but that they respected that it was a decision for the British people etc etc.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Sadly, we do have a bit of a wet blanket for PM. Let's see what other reasoned voices come out.

The CEO of Ford was on TV this morning saying that they would rather see the UK inside the EU but that they respected that it was a decision for the British people etc etc.

Sadly H, the majority of the electorate won't be looking at it in as much detail as you or others on this thread. I'm not saying that is underestimating the intelligence of the electorate, but many will be swayed by exactly what we saw on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday morning. Facts and reason will be drowned out by the clarity of the message of each campaign. I don't think the electorate will buy into us being safer either way in or out of the EU for example, I found this claim from DC particularly jarring.

...and if he carries on saying 'I love Britain', I may vote out for the sole reason of the satisfaction I'll feel seeing him lose!

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

He did an appalling job on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday. Farage, a man I can happily disagree on just about anything, made a far more statesman like case for leaving, getting a strong point across. Our PM on the other hand came on dithering about how much he loves Britain, how scared we should be and we'll be safer in the EU...If that is the tact he is taking, then I'm expecting us to vote leave in the summer.

I don't think he did do an appalling job, in fact it was a classic example of how to get a message across.

He wasn't at all interested in answering specific questions, all he did was use the platform to get his themes across. He was constantly repeating the themes in fact and the theory is that the repetition of these themes will permeate into the subconscious of those without strongly held views.

It was text book. In fact, I suggest a drinking game whenever he is being interviewed on the EU - each time he mentions security, influence, Britain's place in the world, the country he loves, his experience of dealing with the world etc. etc. then see off a shot. You'll be plastered by the end of the interview, but for Cameron it'll be job done come referendum day.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I don't think he did do an appalling job, in fact it was a classic example of how to get a message across.

He wasn't at all interested in answering specific questions, all he did was use the platform to get his themes across. He was constantly repeating the themes in fact and the theory is that the repetition of these themes will permeate into the subconscious of those without strongly held views.

It was text book. In fact, I suggest a drinking game whenever he is being interviewed on the EU - each time he mentions security, influence, Britain's place in the world, the country he loves, his experience of dealing with the world etc. etc. then see off a shot. You'll be plastered by the end of the interview, but for Cameron it'll be job done come referendum day.

He tried to reinforce the security message. You honestly think people will buy that as an argument? He made security a bigger issue than Britain's wider influence in the world etc. which is the message he should be focussing on. While Farage made valid points about Norway's agreements, who wants to be like Norway!? An insignificant place in world affairs - that is how he counters that argument, not suggesting we're safer in the EU, that is just bs.

 

[Triggaaar]

This is from yesterday, so it may be on one of the threads already:

Crowds cheer as German migrant hostel is burnt down, and even try to stop firefighters putting out the blaze.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/crowd-cheers-german-migrant-hostel-7413632

Wouldn't happen in...

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

He tried to reinforce the security message. You honestly think people will buy that as an argument? He made security a bigger issue than Britain's wider influence in the world etc. which is the message he should be focussing on. While Farage made valid points about Norway's agreements, who wants to be like Norway!? An insignificant place in world affairs - that is how he counters that argument, not suggesting we're safer in the EU, that is just bs.

No. That is not what I am saying.

I am saying his performance was not 'appalling' - he did exactly what he set out to do which is keep repeating certain themes ( whether they are actually true or not ). And he'll keep repeating them. For 4 months. And at some point they will become facts for some voters.

So, not answering the questions, not necessarily making good points in matters of detail, but job done.

 

[Triggaaar]

He tried to reinforce the security message. You honestly think people will buy that as an argument?

It's not what I think, but Cameron doesn't go on a show and ad lib, his highly skilled and experienced team have worked out that's the best way to win. They will have studied in detail why Scotland voted to stay united, and no doubt some of it was down to the unknown of leaving. I hate the stupid 'sound bite' style of politics, but it obviously works.

While Farage made valid points about Norway's agreements, who wants to be like Norway!? An insignificant place in world affairs

Surely having some agreements doesn't suddenly make us like Norway. Norway is a tiny country (not meant derogatorily) and doesn't have the world history that the UK has.

 

[Bold Seagull]

No. That is not what I am saying.

I am saying his performance was not 'appallling' - he did exactly what he set out to do which is keep repeating certain themes ( whether they are actually true or not ). And he'll keep repeating them. For 4 months. And at some point they will become facts for some voters.

So, not answering the questions, not necessarily making good points in matters of detail, but job done.

It will only be job done if he wins. He goes into this campaign with the stay campaign ahead. Loses this and it is far from job done, that was a poor start in my opinion.

This isn't a general election, he's going to lose a lot of voters who voted for him because Tories will be split on the issue. He's therefore going to have to take a lot of those from the centre and left with him, and that is going to require better tactics than the rhetoric that appeals to his own core vote.

 

[Hamilton]

Sadly H, the majority of the electorate won't be looking at it in as much detail as you or others on this thread. I'm not saying that is underestimating the intelligence of the electorate, but many will be swayed by exactly what we saw on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday morning. Facts and reason will be drowned out by the clarity of the message of each campaign. I don't think the electorate will buy into us being safer either way in or out of the EU for example, I found this claim from DC particularly jarring.

...and if he carries on saying 'I love Britain', I may vote out for the sole reason of the satisfaction I'll feel seeing him lose!

And there you have hit the nail sadly on the head.

 

[GT49er]

But that's an emotive response from you. You have to base argument on facts and everything you had previously argued is bought into question by Cameron's deal. That's fair isn't it?

No, I'm afraid it is absolute bo11ocks.

 

[Hamilton]

Norway is a tiny country (not meant derogatorily) and doesn't have the world history that the UK has.

Shurely shome mishtake?

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's not what I think, but Cameron doesn't go on a show and ad lib, his highly skilled and experienced team have worked out that's the best way to win. They will have studied in detail why Scotland voted to stay united, and no doubt some of it was down to the unknown of leaving. I hate the stupid 'sound bite' style of politics, but it obviously works.

As I said above, my fear is that he is surrounded by a team that, let us not forget was led by Andy Coulson at one point, so lets not get too excited about calling them highly skilled, a team that is Tory to the core, and they will focus on those values that have been successful to DC in elections. This isn't an election. They're going to need to recalibrate their radar as they've got to turn David into someone that delivers a message that appeals to people who wouldn't ever vote for him. That didn't happen yesterday.

Surely having some agreements doesn't suddenly make us like Norway. Norway is a tiny country (not meant derogatorily) and doesn't have the world history that the UK has.

Of course it doesn't, Farage was banging on about how Norway does this, Norway does that. As you have done should have been easier to bat that one away, and yet it was a clearer message from Farage, than spinning a load of themes about.

 

[Hamilton]

No, I'm afraid it is absolute bo11ocks.

I see, so when you* were arguing that we had no control of our borders - and yet we aren't in the Schengen area - that was true was it?

EDIT: *you supported J C Footy Geniuses point of view.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

It will only be job done if he wins. He goes into this campaign with the stay campaign ahead. Loses this and it is far from job done, that was a poor start in my opinion.

This isn't a general election, he's going to lose a lot of voters who voted for him because Tories will be split on the issue. He's therefore going to have to take a lot of those from the centre and left with him, and that is going to require better tactics than the rhetoric that appeals to his own core vote.

Yes, of course - if he wins.

But he doesn't need to win on every point of detail at this stage. He needs to get his themes across at every opportunity and repeatedly.

No one will remember points of detail about Norway in 4 months time.