The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Green Cross Code Man]

This is a bit of a stretch Have you been to South Australia

Good point lol!

 

[cunning fergus]

But both countries are a union of states.

As oppose to a union of nations?

 

[BadFish]

As oppose to a union of nations?

True enough but the similarities are their

 

[JC Footy Genius]

States with a federal government. The future of the EU

Never going to happen it will either break up through democratic resistance (see Brexit/rise of nationalist parties throughout Europe) or Economic collapse (see Eurozone crisis) or disintegration of societal cohesiveness (see migrant crisis). #vote leave

 

[Hampster Gull]

True enough but the similarities are their

Just a matter of time, although Dave has pushed for two tier membership

 

[cunning fergus]

True enough but the similarities are their

Thankfully there are none of these similarities yet...........if you think there are similarities then you should be arguing that WW1 and WW2 were civil wars.........no doubt in the future this will be EU doctrine, but as at now we know the truth.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Never going to happen it will either break up through democratic resistance (see Brexit/rise of nationalist parties throughout Europe) or Economic collapse (see Eurozone crisis) or disintegration of societal cohesiveness (see migrant crisis). #vote leave

What makes you so sure? Brexit hasn't happened and is unlikely to, nationalism always comes to the fore in times of economic woe (financial crisis), eurozone hasnt resulted in an economic collapse and the euro has been amazingly resilient snd disintegration of social cohesiveness - where?

 

[BadFish]

Just a matter of time, although Dave has pushed for two tier membership

It seems to be the logical conclusion of the project.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

What makes you so sure? Brexit hasn't happened and is unlikely to, nationalism always comes to the fore in times of economic woe (financial crisis), eurozone hasnt resulted in an economic collapse and the euro has been amazingly resilient snd disintegration of social cohesiveness - where?

Recent history/political laws of nature. Brexit may not happen but the underlying issues will remain. Nationalist parties have never been stronger even in countries with economies that are doing ok/well. If we go through a real economic depression all bets are off. Speaking of which ..The Eurozone crisis has not been resolved just put off, the underlying flaws are stiill to be resolved/insolvable. Borders and razor wire springing up all over Europe with mass sexual assaults in numerous European cities feeding the rise of extremist sentiment .... have you been following the news?

 

[cunning fergus]

What makes you so sure? Brexit hasn't happened and is unlikely to, nationalism always comes to the fore in times of economic woe (financial crisis), eurozone hasnt resulted in an economic collapse and the euro has been amazingly resilient snd disintegration of social cohesiveness - where?

The creation and subsequent management of the euro created a disaster that has still to be resolved.

If you think that the Eurozone countries and the currency are resilient you need to look beyond the BBC..........the warning signs are there.

https://www.dailyfx.com/forex/funda...anking-sector-is-screaming-warning-signs.html

 

[cunning fergus]

What makes you so sure? Brexit hasn't happened and is unlikely to, nationalism always comes to the fore in times of economic woe (financial crisis), eurozone hasnt resulted in an economic collapse and the euro has been amazingly resilient snd disintegration of social cohesiveness - where?

The creation and subsequent management of the euro has caused an economic disaster that has still to be resolved.

If you think that the Eurozone countries and the currency are resilient you need to look beyond the BBC..........the warning signs are there.

https://www.dailyfx.com/forex/funda...anking-sector-is-screaming-warning-signs.html

Any meaningful resolution of the crisis has yet to begin, it will require fiscal transfer from the rich EZ countries (predominantly Germany) to the poorer ones, and all the countries will essentially surrender fiscal control to the unelected ECB.

Given the euro and EU's track record to date I don't think this will end well...........feel free to assuage my doubt?

 

[larus]

What makes you so sure? Brexit hasn't happened and is unlikely to, nationalism always comes to the fore in times of economic woe (financial crisis), eurozone hasnt resulted in an economic collapse and the euro has been amazingly resilient snd disintegration of social cohesiveness - where?

No-one can possibly say that the Eurozone is a success. It's a complete disaster. The economies of several member countries are totally screwed; locked into permanent stagnation and high unemployment. Greece, Portugal, Spain being kept afloat by the ECB buying their debt. This cannot work unless there are fiscal transfers which ain't gonna happen. Germany won't do it, and until this happens, these issues cannot be cured.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This is exact;y my point. The only reason I would vote in is because it, effectively, keeps things as they are. If there was an undecided option I would, currently vote that.

I thought your point was how can you vote in a certain way when you don't know the future risks. I would say there are as many risks staying in the EU as leaving.

We know we will not have full control of our borders - large scale immigration will continue, we know our courts and laws will be subservient to EU law/courts, we know ever closer union will continue towards a Federal European superstate, we know there will be an ongoing Eurozone crisis adversely effecting the EU, we know there will be an ongoing migrant crisis increasing societal and national tensions.

 

[Hampster Gull]

The creation and subsequent management of the euro has caused an economic disaster that has still to be resolved.

If you think that the Eurozone countries and the currency are resilient you need to look beyond the BBC..........the warning signs are there.

https://www.dailyfx.com/forex/funda...anking-sector-is-screaming-warning-signs.html

Any meaningful resolution of the crisis has yet to begin, it will require fiscal transfer from the rich EZ countries (predominantly Germany) to the poorer ones, and all the countries will essentially surrender fiscal control to the unelected ECB.

Given the euro and EU's track record to date I don't think this will end well...........feel free to assuage my doubt?

It was so good you posted twice. The warning signs are there and have been for many many years. Without fiscal integration it will always be in danger. So expect sme fiscal integration. But the Euro has proved extremely resiliant, underpinned by political will. If that remains so will the Euro. It will outlast all of us on this site.

 

[Hampster Gull]

No-one can possibly say that the Eurozone is a success. It's a complete disaster. The economies of several member countries are totally screwed; locked into permanent stagnation and high unemployment. Greece, Portugal, Spain being kept afloat by the ECB buying their debt. This cannot work unless there are fiscal transfers which ain't gonna happen. Germany won't do it, and until this happens, these issues cannot be cured.

I didnt say it eas a sucess, i merley stated it hadnt resulted in economic collapse as had been stated. But it has rolled with some pretty big blows. Expect it to last, albeit perhaps not with quite the same membership

 

[cunning fergus]

It was so good you posted twice. The warning signs are there and have been for many many years. Without fiscal integration it will always be in danger. So expect sme fiscal integration. But the Euro has proved extremely resiliant, underpinned by political will. If that remains so will the Euro. It will outlast all of us on this site.

I don't understand your point here, you accept there needs to be full fiscal integration for the currency to be secure, but you don't think this will take place?

Instead you think there will be a partial fiscal integration and that will be fine because so long as the politicians find a solution to the next crisis then all will be well for ever........I think that's it isn't it?

Is this an argument you are making to support the EU or to highlight its systemic weakness? I am not sure.

 

[Hamilton]

I thought your point was how can you vote in a certain way when you don't know the future risks. I would say there are as many risks staying in the EU as leaving.

We know we will not have full control of our borders - large scale immigration will continue, we know our courts and laws will be subservient to EU law/courts, we know ever closer union will continue towards a Federal European superstate, we know there will be an ongoing Eurozone crisis adversely effecting the EU, we know there will be an ongoing migrant crisis increasing societal and national tensions.

But none of that is true is it. That's the point of the negotiations. We are opted out of all that.

 

[GT49er]

But none of that is true is it. That's the point of the negotiations. We are opted out of all that.

errrmmm ...... well, not exactly. Maybe yes if you believe the spin Dodgy Dave is peddling ..... and the tooth fairy ..... and cup cakes ...........

 

[Hamilton]

errrmmm ...... well, not exactly. Maybe yes if you believe the spin Dodgy Dave is peddling ..... and the tooth fairy ..... and cup cakes ...........

So you'd rather people made decisions on the basis of emotions rather than facts?

 

[GT49er]

So you'd rather people made decisions on the basis of emotions rather than facts?

No, on facts is fine, but not on the desperate spin of Dodgy Dave.