Sorry to get political on an Albion site but.....

[tedebear]

I talk to adults who did everything we do but there wasn't mass-media and it wasn't on the front-page on newspapers because the older generations want to gratify themslves by exagerating the teenage generations plight.

Perhaps it is an insecurity. Every generation snipes at the next generation, perhaps to try to feel superior. .

I'm going to be the lone voice of dissent here then. The older generations gratifying themselves? Trying to feel superior? Without disrespect thats a view that shows little understanding of the extent of the problem. Anti social behaviour wasn't heard of in my parents day not because it didn't exist but because it wasn't as severe as it is today. I can remember people getting in dust ups over bikes/cars/possessions - but I never heard of anyone carrying a weapon to sort it out. I never heard of someone being kicked to death whilst young people trashed his street and made a horrible life for those living around them. I remember friends drinking a little at a young age - but I don't remember seeing them sitting on street corners jeering at passerby to the point of fear, or gesturing and swearing at any police officer who turns up to see whats going on.

I am no socialist and believe in individual responsibility but who bought up these children? And therein lies the problem.

I do not believe it is, the classic cliche, ' I blame the parents' but they do have a role to play.

So the problem lies with the parents or not? I don't follow you there. You say who bought them up? and therein lies the problem>

Discipline in schools. School appears to be a focal point of the older generation, 'exams are getting easier', ' schools are too soft'. Both of which, are rubbish.

I do not believe exams are getting easier whatsoever. Teaching is getting better. I take triples science and we are having to study work which our teacher did at degree level, he is very sceptical as to why we have to learn it. In History we do A-level questions!

Schools getting softer. I am unsure about this personally. In some cases, yes, they are too soft. But they are only too soft because it is the parents which complain if they are strict! School has turned into a nanny-state. Kids are scared to say the word 'black' and if you don't 'love and respect' someone you can get done for bullying no questions asked, you barely get a chance to defend yourself. The work load is increasing which is perhaps why it appears they are soft on people who do not do the work.

First you say schools are too soft and then you say youre unsure personally? Exams I don't believe are getting easier I agree there, but the resources you have at your disposal to study for these exams are far greater. Teaching isn't better or worse - its just different. Different due to the changes in population, in curriculum and in social values.

Schools are and will be a focal point for the older generation as many of us still believe that you are there to learn something useful. Many young people these days believe school is a social activity. My parents had it drummed into them that school was a necessity to get on in life, most teenagers around here seem to look for the first opportunity to skip school and sit outside a train station. Spot the reason why the older generation will focus on it?

I think many young people I come across on my daily travels lack respect above anything else. Their parents have rightly or wrongly given them anything they want, haven't taught them to respect people who are actually doing something for them (teachers/police officers/bus driviers/train conductors etc.) and have allowed their children to adopt the "me first" attitude. Therein lies the problem - everything else is secondary.

 

[SeagullEd]

I'm going to be the lone voice of dissent here then. The older generations gratifying themselves? Trying to feel superior? Without disrespect thats a view that shows little understanding of the extent of the problem. Anti social behaviour wasn't heard of in my parents day not because it didn't exist but because it wasn't as severe as it is today. I can remember people getting in dust ups over bikes/cars/possessions - but I never heard of anyone carrying a weapon to sort it out. I never heard of someone being kicked to death whilst young people trashed his street and made a horrible life for those living around them. I remember friends drinking a little at a young age - but I don't remember seeing them sitting on street corners jeering at passerby to the point of fear, or gesturing and swearing at any police officer who turns up to see whats going on.

What I am saying is, in general, the older generations seem to take something positive from the whole thing. I think perhaps they are insecure because of all these technological advances etc so have to poke holes. That’s my theory. Anti-social behaviour was heard of and always has been a problem. Someone must have got the cane/ done something wrong in public. You never heard of people carrying guns? Do you not know of the huge problems after the war of soldiers carrying the guns round with them and robbing banks! Yes, some kids do that, granted. But the majority don’t, seriously. I think you have quite a narrow mind.

So the problem lies with the parents or not? I don't follow you there. You say who bought them up? and therein lies the problem>

What I’m saying is parents must receive some of the blame. A child isn’t born a thug/bully/racist but they have some control and must step up and accept responsibility in part eventually.

First you say schools are too soft and then you say youre unsure personally? Exams I don't believe are getting easier I agree there, but the resources you have at your disposal to study for these exams are far greater. Teaching isn't better or worse - its just different. Different due to the changes in population, in curriculum and in social values.

I believe teaching is better. I can’t remember the technical terms but there are a variety of different learning styles that suit different people, these are catered for these days.

Schools are and will be a focal point for the older generation as many of us still believe that you are there to learn something useful. Many young people these days believe school is a social activity. My parents had it drummed into them that school was a necessity to get on in life, most teenagers around here seem to look for the first opportunity to skip school and sit outside a train station. Spot the reason why the older generation will focus on it?

School is a social activity but that is part of the learning. You talk about anti-social behaviour but where are they going to learn how to behave away from their parents etc? From school. School IS more then just learning academically and the government say this! If you think the parents are going to teach the child social things (how to act in different situations) then clearly they don’t if teenagers are sitting on benches hurling abuse at everyone.

I think many young people I come across on my daily travels lack respect above anything else. Their parents have rightly or wrongly given them anything they want, haven't taught them to respect people who are actually doing something for them (teachers/police officers/bus driviers/train conductors etc.) and have allowed their children to adopt the "me first" attitude. Therein lies the problem - everything else is secondary.

We lack respect? I completely disagree. But how is a child supposed to respect a society which pre-brand him/her a chav, a yob or a troublemaker? The majority do have respect but respect is a two-way thing and we are not respected by older generations nearly enough.

 

[Lady Bracknell]

Never forget that it's the easiest thing in the world to promise that "Things Can Only Get Better" from the opposition Front Bench. It's pure rhetoric all the while you don't have to actually deliver the goods.

 

[tedebear]

What I am saying is, in general, the older generations seem to take something positive from the whole thing. I think perhaps they are insecure because of all these technological advances etc so have to poke holes. That’s my theory. Anti-social behaviour was heard of and always has been a problem. Someone must have got the cane/ done something wrong in public. You never heard of people carrying guns? Do you not know of the huge problems after the war of soldiers carrying the guns round with them and robbing banks! Yes, some kids do that, granted. But the majority don’t, seriously. I think you have quite a narrow mind.

Narrow mind? Sorry I fail to see how being considerably worried about children, yes children, carrying guns and knives is being narrow minded. It is criminal and that there are kids who believe that that is ok, not withstanding the law, is frightening. What concerns me is how they are being taught or allowed to believe that that is ok.

We lack respect? I completely disagree. But how is a child supposed to respect a society which pre-brand him/her a chav, a yob or a troublemaker? The majority do have respect but respect is a two-way thing and we are not respected by older generations nearly enough.

Respected for doing what?

 

[Harty]

I think people have touched on it but when the Thatcher goverments took the discipline out of schools it created an enviroment that has got worse, the kids know the teachers have no real deterrent so they basically behave how they like.
And it gets everywhere, our Under 15's played this morning a player called the linesman a "C*nt" in front of quite a large crowd, the ref did nothing, not even booked him, the manager and the chairman of the offending club heard it, yet no-one acts because its the 'norm', and the player is merely a "natural competitior".

Sad days............

 

[dougdeep]

I think people have touched on it but when the Thatcher goverments took the discipline out of schools it created an enviroment that has got worse, the kids know the teachers have no real deterrent so they basically behave how they like.
And it gets everywhere, our Under 15's played this morning a player called the linesman a "C*nt" in front of quite a large crowd, the ref did nothing, not even booked him, the manager and the chairman of the offending club heard it, yet no-one acts because its the 'norm', and the player is merely a "natural competitior".

Sad days............

How did she take it out?

 

[tedebear]

I think people have touched on it but when the Thatcher goverments took the discipline out of schools it created an enviroment that has got worse, the kids know the teachers have no real deterrent so they basically behave how they like.
And it gets everywhere, our Under 15's played this morning a player called the linesman a "C*nt" in front of quite a large crowd, the ref did nothing, not even booked him, the manager and the chairman of the offending club heard it, yet no-one acts because its the 'norm', and the player is merely a "natural competitior".

Sad days............

Agreed and a subject which I'm quite passionate about (except the Thatcher part - not sure about that). I heard that word directed at a train conductor last week on the way back from Durrington. From a kid who didn't have a ticket but expected to be able to stay on the train!

 

[SeagullEd]

Narrow mind? Sorry I fail to see how being considerably worried about children, yes children, carrying guns and knives is being narrow minded. It is criminal and that there are kids who believe that that is ok, not withstanding the law, is frightening. What concerns me is how they are being taught or allowed to believe that that is ok.



Respected for doing what?

You took that out of context. You are narrow minded in your views of what us youth do. You seem to believe we lack any substance and have no respect which is ridiculous. I actually know of no-one who sits on becnhes swearing at police when drunk.

There should be a civil respect even if you've done nothing to earn it. If you don't know someone you should respect them until they loose it or gain more, surely? but that doesn't happen. Iw alk down the road late at night and people, you can see, are intimidated and scared. I am not annoyed with them as such but don't tar us all with the same brush. It's not that that gets to me. But it's the way you're spoke to by people, they prosume you're going to grunt and not make eye contact etc so talk to you very little and don't respect you whatsoever (this happens in lots of shops etc).

 

[tedebear]

You took that out of context. You are narrow minded in your views of what us youth do. You seem to believe we lack any substance and have no respect which is ridiculous. I actually know of no-one who sits on becnhes swearing at police when drunk.

There should be a civil respect even if you've done nothing to earn it. If you don't know someone you should respect them until they loose it or gain more, surely? but that doesn't happen. Iw alk down the road late at night and people, you can see, are intimidated and scared. I am not annoyed with them as such but don't tar us all with the same brush. It's not that that gets to me. But it's the way you're spoke to by people, they prosume you're going to grunt and not make eye contact etc so talk to you very little and don't respect you whatsoever (this happens in lots of shops etc).

No I do not believe you specifically have a lack of substance or respect, but a large group of people of about your age certainly have none. I agree there is a level of respect that all people are granted. But when you catch a train and you walk in a carriage and see 4 or 5 teenagers or younger, standing on seats, playing music on their mobile phones at the loudest volume they will go, swearing at each other, my level of respect drops enormously. As it did for the kid who called the train conductor a c**t. Same for the usual crowd of tracksuit wearing, cider drinking youths sitting outside Shoreham station, who have repeatedly smashed the bus shelter, and keyed numerous cars.

You have to understand that the minority are spoiling it for you. The respect you so rightly crave is being taken away from you due to the actions of others. Is this fair - no, of course not. But you have to understand it. Fixing it is an entirely different matter.

 

[bhaexpress]

No I do not believe you specifically have a lack of substance or respect, but a large group of people of about your age certainly have none. I agree there is a level of respect that all people are granted. But when you catch a train and you walk in a carriage and see 4 or 5 teenagers or younger, standing on seats, playing music on their mobile phones at the loudest volume they will go, swearing at each other, my level of respect drops enormously. As it did for the kid who called the train conductor a c**t. Same for the usual crowd of tracksuit wearing, cider drinking youths sitting outside Shoreham station, who have repeatedly smashed the bus shelter, and keyed numerous cars.

You have to understand that the minority are spoiling it for you. The respect you so rightly crave is being taken away from you due to the actions of others. Is this fair - no, of course not. But you have to understand it. Fixing it is an entirely different matter.

Well, maybe a deterrent would be a punishment a little sterner than simply sending then home to mummy and daddy having told them that they are not very nice. One reason some many kids have no respect for the law is that they have no fear of suitable reprisal. If carrying a knife for example carried the same level of punishment as carry a revolver maybe fewer kids wouldn't be quite so keen.

I don't care how draconian I sound it just seems that we are more concerned with the welfare of the criminal than that of the victim.

 

[SeagullEd]

So you reserve the right to generalise us as yobs with no respects and critisize us for not obeying the law?

What about the thousands of teenagers who are hit by cars driven by adults either under the influence or on mobile phones or something? Or the chilren who are victim of domestic violence from their parents?

Yet we don't think all adults are like that, because we make the effort and we know they're not. When we're walking down the street we don't try and avoid adults because they might mug us or abduct us.

If you pre-judge us then whats the point, no matter what we do you'll think the same.

You talk about large groups of teenagers my age having no respect. I was at a party last night, where Hartys daughter was as well, with about 35 15/16/17 year olds. Obviously a few damages did happen but they were all accidental. On our way both to and from the party, and in it, we treated anyone we saw regardless of age/gendre with respect and we weren't anti-social. But, of course, you'd think we were because of 4/5 kids that have gone of the rails.

The problem is completely over-stretched and the obsession with my generation being yobs is worrying. Why is the obsession there?

 

[SeagullEd]

Sorry for posting a seperate thing but I wasn't allowed to edit my last post.

And on your comment about the law and children not obeying it.

I have broken some laws which I don't agree with. I don't get the right to vote. It isn't that kids think the law doesn't apply to them, perhaps they don't agree with it for a real reason! I know plenty of adults like that. Adults that park where they shouldn't, who don't pay their council tax because they don't think they should and adults who do cash in hand jobs becaus ethey don't agree with the taxation. But they're not hounded and dubbed anti-social problemmed people.

 

[The Oldman]

All very well to keep blaming Society, poitical parties, teachers etc but is it not up to each of us to respect other people, their property and set an example to children?

Putting feet on seats in the train or bus; throwing litter down; not giving way on footpaths to others, using foul language or obscene gestures. We see it all the time. No wonder children have no idea what constitutes decent behaviour.

One poster above complained that no one took action at a junior football match when a youngster used the C word. What do you expect when the word is used so widely today at matches and elsewhere?

Respect and self discipline is each person's responsibilty not Parliament.

 

[SeagullEd]

All very well to keep blaming Society, poitical parties, teachers etc but is it not up to each of us to respect other people, their property and set an example to children?

Putting feet on seats in the train or bus; throwing litter down; not giving way on footpaths to others, using foul language or obscene gestures. We see it all the time. No wonder children have no idea what constitutes decent behaviour.

One poster above complained that no one took action at a junior football match when a youngster used the C word. What do you expect when the word is used so widely today at matches and elsewhere?

Respect and self discipline is each person's responsibilty not Parliament.

Yes it is up to individuals to set an example. But what I object to is the youth being made out as some sort of evil generation. Are the prisons overflowing with 15/16 year olds? No. Where does someone learn not to do those things? Most often from their parents. But even still, yes it is good manners so they should try to do it themselves.

But where societies problems are concerned they always find a scape goat.

Some will blame the youth, some will blame immigrants and others will blame politicians and some will blame the americans. Throughout history we have always found a scape-goat. Public enemies vary tremendously. It seems like at the moment it's the youths turn to kop the flack.

 

[bhaexpress]

Sorry for posting a seperate thing but I wasn't allowed to edit my last post.

And on your comment about the law and children not obeying it.

I have broken some laws which I don't agree with. I don't get the right to vote. It isn't that kids think the law doesn't apply to them, perhaps they don't agree with it for a real reason! I know plenty of adults like that. Adults that park where they shouldn't, who don't pay their council tax because they don't think they should and adults who do cash in hand jobs becaus ethey don't agree with the taxation. But they're not hounded and dubbed anti-social problemmed people.

The reason that you don't get to vote is that technically you're still a child. Breaking laws because you don't agree with them is fine if you believe in anarchy of course. As far as adults not paying their taxes, parking where they like and so on, well maybe your mummy and daddy don't have a problem with that sort of behaviour but the vast majority of voters do.

 

[tedebear]

The problem is completely over-stretched and the obsession with my generation being yobs is worrying. Why is the obsession there?

Because you grow up to be us, and as a whole us needs to be better.

 

[SeagullEd]

And this sums up why children might not appear to have respect for people like you.

I am trying to communicate with you on a civil level. I am typing in proper English and trying to organise my arguments logically and meaningfully. But once again I am not treated as an equal because of my age. You then seem to patronize me and belittle me by using 'mummy and daddy' I am not stupid, it clearly had intent.

So you have the right to patronize me and be a condescending fool but when it comes to people my age we have to take responsibility for all of our actions . Doesn't quite seem fair does it?

If you are going to say that 15 year olds should be capable of independant thought and know what they're doing in wrong etc and accept these same responsibilities as adults then surely we are entitled to the basic rights, being taken seriously and not being patronized.

However, I'm going to look past that because i'm not narrow minded and try and focus on your point. I think you'd be surprised how many adults do break law sthey don't agree with. Speed limits for instance, I bet eveyr adult that drives has gone oer a speed limit before or something like that.

Yes, I am still a child in your eyes and in the eyes of the law and that is why I can't vote. But I have opinions just like the rest of you, though you might not value them because I'm younger. People critisize the youth for 0 interest in politics but if someone tries to take an interest they are shot down.

 

[The Oldman]

Seagull Ed, I understand your frustration but it is not just youth who are being criticised. In the media and on here Parents are coming in for a fair bit of stick. As with children and teenagers there are good and bad parents.

Good for the majority of today's young folk that they are responsible but the nation does seem to have been shaken by recent events. If the debate about causes has a positive effect then that will be good. One thing I am certain blaming the Tory party (which is where this thread started) will not do anything.

 

[mr cgull]

As a teacher I have been reading these posts with interest. First thing I would ask Harty exactly what the tory government did to take discipline away from schools? I have been teaching for 7 years and although have no experience of this era, have never heard any of my colleagues talk about such policy - I am willing to be corrected though.

Anyway, here are my opinions on the matter:

1. Has discipline actually got worse? Yes, I'm sure it is much worse than the 1940s and 1950s but is it really worse than 10, 20 or 30 years ago? Where is the evidence for this? I suspect it comes from my point number 2. From my experience, I can say that at my school, the behaviour of pupils is markedly better than when I started in 2001. Now obviously that is nothing to state national opinions on, but I would also add that I've been fortunate to visit a range of schools in my 7 years (some middle class schools, some working class schools, including inner London) and have never come away thinking other than being impressed with the behaviour.

To be fair, I would add that I am a Primary School teacher and I guess a lot of this is about Secondary Schools, of which I have less experience of (but still what I have seen has been of better behaviour than perceived).

2. (Refer to my comment in Point 1). Where do a lot of people's judgements come from? The media - people lap it up, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, but the media will nearly always exaggerate, after all they need to sell papers. If people are basing their opinions on experience then fair enough, but if they are basing it from media perceptions, then I believe that is an invalid argument.

3. What is the biggest challenge to do with school discipline? In my opinion, it is undoubetdly the parents. At a range of different levels, children are set a very bad example by their parents, and unsurprisingly they copy them and perhaps take them further. When I started teaching, I was expecting parents at parents evening to complain about their child's behaviour at school and say "they don't do that at home". I have found that it is the opposite, they are surprised by their seemingly better behaviour at school. It seems to me that teachers (not always) mostly challenge poor behviour more than parents (who pass it off as amusing/ignore it/cope with it...)

3. My second parents gripe: When their child does something wrong and the school tries to deal with it, parents often listen to their child rather than the school - what example does that set? So, rather than children taking responsibility for the actions, they are being helped by their parents to get away with it.

4. The culture that it was better in my day, a la Fred Trueman. Adults do it all the time. I'm sure some of the time they are right, but perhaps, just perhaps, sometimes they are seeing things through a very rosey memory.

Seagulls Ed, I don't agree with you on some of your views on minorities and feminism, but I think in other ways you have put up some very coherent and logical points. Young people are capable of very mature thoughts and ideas and I think it is easy for adults to dismiss their ideas for their age. As an example, I would cite comments made about Lee Hughes - in my opinion some of the most mature thoughts came from some of the younger posters.

Anyway, they are my thoughts - I have used 'in my opinion' a lot because I don't have evidence that can always support some of my generalisations, but from my experience, that is what I think!

Mr CGull

P.S. Harty - if you really want to gripe about Government policy and education, perhpas you might like to start a thread about League Tables and testing!

 

[blue'n'white]

Indeed, but minorities rule society now. And that gets my back up.

Homosexuals, immigrants and travellers - none of whom I have any problem with, are some of the minorities who are pussy-footed around relentlessly. her soldiers, Christmas decorations are band from public places in some areas.

I quite agree with you on this point
We mustn't upset this person, we mustn't upset that one, you have to watch every word you say otherwise someone will jump down your throat for it.
Part of the problem being that some people use their monrity status as a "badge" which indicates to me that they're unhappy with their status - their sexuality, their race, religion or whatever - it's the "You can't say that about something because it may offend me if I wish to take it that way" culture.
Without going into specifics we have a case in our office at the moment where one person who is in one of the minority groups mentioned (and no I am not going to say which one) will complain about anyone who says something which he thinks he should find offensive and he is ruining our office. You cannot get shot of him because he is a minority and you cannot discipline him because then you're "taking it out" on him. One person disrupting the work and social life of a previously happy and hard working results driven team. And we can do nothing because he's a minority. How fair is that ?