Sorry to get political on an Albion site but.....

[Nibble]

You took that out of context. You are narrow minded in your views of what us youth do. You seem to believe we lack any substance and have no respect which is ridiculous. I actually know of no-one who sits on becnhes swearing at police when drunk.

There should be a civil respect even if you've done nothing to earn it. If you don't know someone you should respect them until they loose it or gain more, surely? but that doesn't happen. Iw alk down the road late at night and people, you can see, are intimidated and scared. I am not annoyed with them as such but don't tar us all with the same brush. It's not that that gets to me. But it's the way you're spoke to by people, they prosume you're going to grunt and not make eye contact etc so talk to you very little and don't respect you whatsoever (this happens in lots of shops etc).

Children/teenagers get far, far more respect than when I was younger. They are listened to, their views are taken into account, they have many more forums to speak their point of view than they did 20 years ago. When I was growing up, by and large my feelings about things were not taken into account. I wasn't asked if I wanted to do something, or go somewhere I was told that was what was happening.

I think kids get too much respect these days and being kids they naturally get given an inch and take a mile. That is what kids do.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Harty

Harty has some fair points, but... the Tories sold off school playing fields, so are New Labour; the Tories got rid of Grammar Schools, New Labour will not put them back; the Tories presided over failing disclipline but Labour will not put it back; the Tories got rid of proper school meals and replaced them with junk and its left to Jamie Oliver to campaign over this.

So Blair, Brown and friends are not fulfilling many of the populations wishes. As bad as each other? Depressing.

As to the teacher who says the media exagerate - how can you exagerate someone being kicked to death? Your points undermine all the suffering and brave points that poor widow made. My niece trained as a teacher here and emigrated to New Zealand because she couldn't teach properly because there are no sanctions against the unruly kids in the class.

Of course not all kids are bad - but the point is that there are no sanctions against those that are - letting their behaviour go unchecked and grow ever cockier and agrressive. Are we really helping them by letting this happen - never mind their victims? The blame game goes round in circles. Firstly, there are parents who fall into two categories: firstly, clearly unfity to ever have a child, and secondly those who are well-meaning but will not administer discipline - "it is difficult" you hear them say.

Schools have been robbed of much of the discipline that was there when I was there 30 years ago. Not only that, but when they are expelled now they hang round the streets - we were frightened of being send to Approved Schools; but they have gone.

Finally, the police are also emasculated, and the kids know they cannot engage physically with them. There is also no punishment when they do arrest them. So is it any surprise they do not bother or come when called?

We need joined up intervention, disclipline and punishment. Consistent and thought through. Not difficult, but politically sensitive (although only to civil rights lawyers not to 95% of us) and costly. Guess it will never happen.

 

[Storer68]

I'll reply to eveyrone later but I'll do the first one now.

Freddie Goodwin:

I agree win you on a lot of things there but my experiences of adults is very different. I help run another football forum and basically everyone on their is an adult and I feel niether below or above them. I chat to them all regularly (almost eveyr day) on msn and the gap is completely lifted. I spent my work experience week with a load of Brighton in the Community coaches which was absolutely fantastic and tehy were all really nice guys and there was no gap.

It is hard for me to say how a kid like that (sitting with feet on seats on buses) etc would response because I am not one of them. But I repeat, the amount of kids that do that is minimal! However, from my experiences I think it is the way in which the adult would speak to them (and sadly who the adult was, I must admit) and yes I agree they should not be doing it in the first place.

But I completely agree with you about football. I think most 70 year old men would be intimidated by 4 15 year olds who look older coming out of the football on their own etc, but at 2 away games that has been the case a 70 year old man has come up and started chatting to us about the football everytime. And we actually reall appreciate it because that gap is absolutely awful.

Could you use some comprehensible English next time as we old farts tend to need words to be spelt properly and sentences to be constructed correctly (you know, with a verb) to understand the points yo wish to make.

 

[SeagullEd]

I'll reply to everyone later but I'll do the first one now.

Freddie Goodwin:

I agree win you on a lot of things there, but my experiences of adults is very different. I help run another football forum and basically everyone on there is an adult and I feel neither below nor above them. I chat to them all regularly (almost every day) on msn and the gap is completely lifted. I spent my work experience week with a load of Brighton in the Community coaches which was absolutely fantastic and they were all really nice guys and there was no gap.

It is hard for me to say how a kid like that (sitting with feet on seats on buses) etc would response, because I am not one of them. But I repeat, the amount of kids that do that is minimal! However, from my experiences I think it is the way in which the adult would speak to them (and sadly who the adult was, I must admit) and yes I agree they should not be doing it in the first place.

But I completely agree with you about football. I think most 70 year old men would be intimidated by four 15 year olds, who look older, coming out of the football on their own etc. But at 2 away games that has been the case a 70 year old man has come up and started chatting to us about the football. And we actually really appreciate it because that gap is absolutely awful.

That better for you? Don't try and pretend you can't understand what I said initially (sorry but I was up and in a rush but eager to reply) because that would mean you're even more petty and out of touch then I first thought. I am not arrogant but if you want to know about my sentence structure and English talents I'll tell you. Don't be pathetic, I thought you were supposed to be a mature, morale, fantastic member of society - seeing as you're an 'adult'.

 

[bhaexpress]

I Don't be pathetic.

Pot, Kettle, Black.

 

[SeagullEd]

I'm slightly unsure of your intentions now to be honest. You don't appear to be making any real points other then having a personal go at me, which is fine but probably quite pointless. If you are saying I am pathetic please explain why you think that!

 

[Publius Ovidius]

I'm slightly unsure of your intentions now to be honest. You don't appear to be making any real points other then having a personal go at me, which is fine but probably quite pointless. If you are saying I am pathetic please explain why you think that!

Dont let this turn into another bINFEST chaps.

As far as I am concerned, the issue is what young people( and older ones too) like to bang on about...RESPECT.

Ed you are very young compared to a lot on here and you have not lived through times when you lived in abject fear of authority, be it teachers, police and public authority people. In my youth( 1960's) if you had to be spoken to by a policeman, your world had ended. Your parents would be informed and one look from my mother and you were a jibbering wreck...the "wait till your father gets home" phrase, only used sparingly did cast fear into you. If you misbehaved at school and the teacher had to send you to the head, again, your world was at an end. I was a cheeky sod, and especially when I went to South Africa, I thought as i was english, I was the bees and ees.....being caned, belted and on one occaision given a beating in front of a class was brutal, but I soon learned.

The police in SA were not to be looked at let alone spoken to. they carried "shamboks"...a large stick that they were not adverse at using.

It may have been fear, but we respected our elders, we wouldnt dream of talking back to officials, and there was none of this "what about my rights?"....you had none.....you were a kid...it was not until you were out working or had left home that his changed.

Ok this may have been extreme, but my experiences of childhood are not necessarily a happy time.

Listening to my mate who is a special in Romford tell us stories of 5 year olds spitting and swearing at him with the backing of the parents makes you wonder what the hell is going on.

Personally I dont think it will get any better...I think it has changed forever

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

I'm slightly unsure of your intentions now to be honest. You don't appear to be making any real points other then having a personal go at me, which is fine but probably quite pointless. If you are saying I am pathetic please explain why you think that!

Ed, you're having your say and good for you. Some of what you say us oldies will think, maybe even know, that you are wrong but don't be put off by the odd snide remark.

What's the point of discussing the 'yoof of today' if we then belittle them? So stick in there, have your say safe in the knowledge that on some things you may be right and on others you may not be.

 

[Zesh Rehman]

The Tory party are the ones which took the discipline out of schools in the 1980's which has gone a long way to causing the problems with the youngsters we have now, but to hear them constantly sniping at the government you'd think they were totally blameless.

Oh i love it Harty, the Tory's RUINED the country in the 80's and early 90's, all Blair could do was try and pick up the pieces.

 

[mr cgull]

Quote:

[As to the teacher who says the media exagerate - how can you exagerate someone being kicked to death? Your points undermine all the suffering and brave points that poor widow made. My niece trained as a teacher here and emigrated to New Zealand because she couldn't teach properly because there are no sanctions against the unruly kids in the class.]



Do you really not think the media exaggerate? Do you believe everything they tell you?

If you don't believe me, all I can say from an education point of view that it is quite staggering the exaggeration and mis-representation that comes across in the media. That's fine if people read things with tongue in cheek, but they don't.

As for the 70 year old widow, obviously I am full of sympathy and am not questioning the details of the case, but I was not aware I had commented about that? How then you can say that my comments undermine her suffering and brave points? To be honest I don't really know much about it. Are you saying that I think she made it up? Or the incident never happened? Or it wasn't their (the attackers) fault?

If I had, I stand open to criticism, but I haven't. But does this terrible incident mean that it is not right to question the media?

I stand by my opinion that the media exaggerate, yes there are some terrible things that happen involving young people (obviously including your example), but that doesn't mean that the media is exempt from criticism.


I feel sorry for your niece, but all I'm doing is giving my opinion based on what I have seen from my (first-hand) experience and having spoken to many others. Of course I'm not naive enough to think that is the same for all teachers; but I am just meerly pointing out that the situation in schools isn't always as bad as some people are lead to believe.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Explanation

In answer to what you say I do believe that the media exaggerate. But my point was that you seem to be denying the fact that we have real problems with the behaviour of a proportion of our youth. If your line of reasoning holds sway then we do not need to do or change anything.

There are so many examples all the time of people being intimidated and attacked that we have to do something - it cannot be ignored. It is not fair to victims and potential victims to come. It is an avoidance of our responsibility as citizens and lazy.

My colleague at work was verbally intimidated by a gang of youths at a bus stop in Plumstead in south London recently. When he told them to leave him alone he was beaten almost unconscious. Is this OK with you? And guesss what - bus drivers drove past not wanting to help (who can blame them?). The police only turned up at the hospital, and later reported they could find no gang around. He complained but got nowhere.

These stories are all too common - it is just plain wrong.

 

[glasfryn]

Are you sure? Do you not think that if you went to Swansea and Cardiff then you might find similar behaviour? What might be a better anaylsis is that the kids that live in the country are better than city kids. Even that falls down a little bit, as there are thousands more kids live in the city than in the country and it only takes one or two to be twats for people to think the whole city is a nightmare.

point taken I have never been to either Cardiff or Swansea other than years ago with the Albion and from what the locals say I don't think I would want to and it does occur to me that this part of the world people are more family orientated and the children have more respect for the elder family members and so more respect for other older people.
It really all has to do with the family and how the children react within that family and the family break up and deterioration,which in the last few decades I would place any blame on the 18 years of tory rule,the taking away of benefits of 16/18 year olds who lived with their family was a direct attack on the working class along with many other things she and her cronies dreamed up to crush the British people who had the damned cheek to stand up for themselves.
And maybe the spectre of having the bread winner coming home from the mine without a job or any prospect of a job made the youth of this part of the world a little more respectful of those in his family.

 

[mr cgull]

In answer to what you say I do believe that the media exaggerate. But my point was that you seem to be denying the fact that we have real problems with the behaviour of a proportion of our youth. If your line of reasoning holds sway then we do not need to do or change anything.

There are so many examples all the time of people being intimidated and attacked that we have to do something - it cannot be ignored. It is not fair to victims and potential victims to come. It is an avoidance of our responsibility as citizens and lazy.

My colleague at work was verbally intimidated by a gang of youths at a bus stop in Plumstead in south London recently. When he told them to leave him alone he was beaten almost unconscious. Is this OK with you? And guesss what - bus drivers drove past not wanting to help (who can blame them?). The police only turned up at the hospital, and later reported they could find no gang around. He complained but got nowhere.

These stories are all too common - it is just plain wrong.

I think we're talking at cross purposes then. To clarify:

- I do believe there is a problem with a section of today's youth and yes, as you I believe something should be done about it. Any events like you have identified are appalling and yes we as a society have a responsibility to sort it out.

- I do believe that there were also problems with sections of youth in previous generations. I think that is easily forgotten. While this doesn't make any incidents acceptable (either then or now), I think it is important that we don't lose sight of this. I am 30 and can honestly say that I cannot notice a significant difference in crime and aggressive attitudes. While I don't want to rely on statistics I'm not sure about - am I right in believing that crime is supposedly falling although knife and gun crime is rising? I have no idea on figures about youth crime but it would be a revealing read. If these figures are true, then yes we do have a significant problem on our hands but also I believe we are given the impression that crime as a whole is on the up.

- Many youngsters are unfairly tarred with the brush of this section of the youth. I don't think that is fair and feel it important that in my (and as I said admittedly not everyone's) experience, behaviour is not as bad as the public are lead to believe. Whether my experience is in the minority or majority, I believe it still to be a point worth making.

Finally, and I don't know whether you do or don't agree with this, I think the first port of call for solving the problem is the parenting skills. How that is tackled though, I have no idea.

 

[mr cgull]

In answer to what you say I do believe that the media exaggerate. But my point was that you seem to be denying the fact that we have real problems with the behaviour of a proportion of our youth. If your line of reasoning holds sway then we do not need to do or change anything.

There are so many examples all the time of people being intimidated and attacked that we have to do something - it cannot be ignored. It is not fair to victims and potential victims to come. It is an avoidance of our responsibility as citizens and lazy.

My colleague at work was verbally intimidated by a gang of youths at a bus stop in Plumstead in south London recently. When he told them to leave him alone he was beaten almost unconscious. Is this OK with you? And guesss what - bus drivers drove past not wanting to help (who can blame them?). The police only turned up at the hospital, and later reported they could find no gang around. He complained but got nowhere.

These stories are all too common - it is just plain wrong.

I think we're talking at cross purposes then. To clarify:

- I do believe there is a problem with a section of today's youth and yes, as you I believe something should be done about it. Any events like you have identified are appalling and yes we as a society have a responsibility to sort it out.

- I do believe that there were also problems with sections of youth in previous generations. I think that is easily forgotten. While this doesn't make any incidents acceptable (either then or now), I think it is important that we don't lose sight of this. I am 30 and can honestly say that I cannot notice a significant difference in crime and aggressive attitudes from 10-15 years ago. While I don't want to rely on statistics I'm not sure about - am I right in believing that crime is supposedly falling although knife and gun crime is rising? I have no idea on figures about youth crime but it would be a revealing read. If these figures are true, then yes we do have a significant problem on our hands but also I believe we are given the impression that crime as a whole is on the up.

- Many youngsters are unfairly tarred with the brush of this section of the youth. I don't think that is fair and feel it important that in my (and as I said admittedly not everyone's) experience, behaviour is not as bad as the public are lead to believe. Whether my experience is in the minority or majority, I believe it still to be a point worth making.

Finally, and I don't know whether you do or don't agree with this, I think the first port of call for solving the problem is the parenting skills. How that is tackled though, I have no idea.

 

[nobody's dupe]

You're at it again Ian. Two posts with no substance out of ninety plus. One to start the ball rolling and another to keep it going. Do you wonder why there are many people who can't take you seriously?

 

[NMH]

You're at it again Ian. Two posts with no substance out of ninety plus. One to start the ball rolling and another to keep it going. Do you wonder why there are many people who can't take you seriously?

Why, because someone doesn't vote the same as you they cannot be taken seriously?
Face it, no-one can ever be agreeable in politics, especially when the Tory twats who have been spanked royally for years because they are led by a keep trying to ONLY win votes by sniping - instead of offering decent solutions.
You know why they can't offer alternatives or say what THEY would do better than anyone else? Because they don't have a clue, that's why.

Cameron is a nob, and he doesn't represent the best interests of more than a handful of people, in the long run.

 

[Dandyman]

Surely, this issue needs to be voiced at Spackers Corner?

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Why, because someone doesn't vote the same as you they cannot be taken seriously?
Face it, no-one can ever be agreeable in politics, especially when the Tory twats who have been spanked royally for years because they are led by a keep trying to ONLY win votes by sniping - instead of offering decent solutions.
You know why they can't offer alternatives or say what THEY would do better than anyone else? Because they don't have a clue, that's why.

Cameron is a nob, and he doesn't represent the best interests of more than a handful of people, in the long run.

But he has offered solutions in this area. Here are two.

He'll give back power to headteachers to run their school as they see fit

He'll make people that live on benefits do community work if they don't find a job

What do you think about those policies. Wrong? Right? Come on have an opinion rather than just sniping.

Personally I agree more with the second idea more than the right. I think headteachers probably want a bit of help and control from above, but I don't think you can be tough enough on people who won't (not can't) work for a living.

You can't just dismiss Cameron as a toff nob that doesn't have a clue.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

But he has offered solutions in this area. Here are two.

He'll give back power to headteachers to run their school as they see fit

He'll make people that live on benefits do community work if they don't find a job

What do you think about those policies. Wrong? Right? Come on have an opinion rather than just sniping.

Personally I agree more with the second idea more than the right. I think headteachers probably want a bit of help and control from above, but I don't think you can be tough enough on people who won't (not can't) work for a living.

You can't just dismiss Cameron as a toff nob that doesn't have a clue.

Well, of course he can, it's whether it's justified that's the point. There are a lot of New Labour apologists on here who can't accept that the New Labour dream has turned into something of a nightmare.

 

[glasfryn]

for someone who is OLD Labour even NEW Labour is better than letting the tories back in.