Some hard truths for the UKIP supporters...

[Pretty pink fairy]

Good question:

1: Food prices have risen due to :

(a) The increase in the middle classes in China, who are eating less rice and more wheat and sugar. This has driven up prices for these products.
(b) Poor harvests in countries such as Brazil, Australia and the USA, partly due to climate change, have reduced the quantity of basic foodstuffs being produced.
(c) The switch to biofuels, which has meant that farmers are planting fewer crops for human consumption and more for conversion into ehanol.

2: Heating prices have risen due to:

(a) Privatisation of energy companies, nearly all of the gas and electricity producing companies are now foreign owned.
(b) Decline in production of North Sea output
(c) Carbon emission taxes
(d) Closure of nuclear energy plants in Germany following the Fukishima disaster in Japan.

i'll go along with some of your points but a lot of our produce is home grown , nothing to do with EU restrictions
regards
DR

 

[cunning fergus]

Good question:

1: Food prices have risen due to :

(a) The increase in the middle classes in China, who are eating less rice and more wheat and sugar. This has driven up prices for these products.
(b) Poor harvests in countries such as Brazil, Australia and the USA, partly due to climate change, have reduced the quantity of basic foodstuffs being produced.
(c) The switch to biofuels, which has meant that farmers are planting fewer crops for human consumption and more for conversion into ehanol.

2: Heating prices have risen due to:

(a) Privatisation of energy companies, nearly all of the gas and electricity producing companies are now foreign owned.
(b) Decline in production of North Sea output
(c) Carbon emission taxes
(d) Closure of nuclear energy plants in Germany following the Fukishima disaster in Japan.

Plus 2.5% on VAT which is paid direct to EU...........puts me in mind of the cry in the lead up to the Boston Tea Party............no taxation without representation.

 

[El Presidente]

Plus 2.5% on VAT which is paid direct to EU...........puts me in mind of the cry in the lead up to the Boston Tea Party............no taxation without representation.

Err.............VAT on food??

 

[cunning fergus]

Sure, some food is subject to VAT...........

Its was a general point though, all goods and services subject to VAT include a rate that is set by the EU, typically this is 2.5%.

Ergo, without the EU we would have costs of said goods and services decrease by 2.5%.

That would surely help the UK's hard pressed families caught up in the current cost of living crisis would it not?

Sounds like it would be a popular political policy to me............

 

[El Presidente]

Ergo, without the EU we would have costs of said goods and services decrease by 2.5%.

No we wouldn't.

I'm currently working in the EU for a few days at present, my phone costs are capped by the EU as it has reduced and abolished many charges. Withdrawal would mean that these cost caps would no longer be applicable in the UK, and so some costs would increase as a result of exit.

Secondly, you are assuming that there are zero costs in setting up bilateral trade agreements with the EU. Given the EU's relationship with the US this is highly unlikely, so the cost of imports would potentially rise. In addition administrative costs of monitoring transactions with EU countries would rise, due to increased paperwork, and these costs would be passed onto the consumer.

Thirdly, by cutting free movement of labour within the EU you are restricting supply, and this increases prices and reduces quality.

 

[beorhthelm]

We export more to Belgium than we do to China.

I'm currently banned from working in Russia, was subject to an interrogation by border security when working in San Francisco, and can only do online work with Beijing.

you are conflating movement of labour in your experience there. im not saying free trade with europe is bad or trade with the rest of world is easy, just i utterly reject the idea proposed that trade outside the EU "incredibly difficult". it isnt, its common and iirc our total export to RoW is marginally greater than total EU exports. we didnt invent exports in 1973, and if we did completely leave the EU tomorrow that wouldnt mean every export there ceased the following day. at worse there would be some tariffs, but since we are net importers it would be in their interests not to impose tariffs and restrictions. (not that im advocating wholesale exit either, just pointing out trade with EU is not an all or nothing affair). going forward increased trade is going to come from India, China etc not Belgium or Italy, so we'll be needing to look external to the EU anyway.

 

[Soulman]

you are conflating movement of labour in your experience there. im not saying free trade with europe is bad or trade with the rest of world is easy, just i utterly reject the idea proposed that trade outside the EU "incredibly difficult". it isnt, its common and iirc our total export to RoW is marginally greater than total EU exports. we didnt invent exports in 1973, and if we did completely leave the EU tomorrow that wouldnt mean every export there ceased the following day. at worse there would be some tariffs, but since we are net importers it would be in their interests not to impose tariffs and restrictions. (not that im advocating wholesale exit either, just pointing out trade with EU is not an all or nothing affair). going forward increased trade is going to come from India, China etc not Belgium or Italy, so we'll be needing to look external to the EU anyway.

Seeing as most of our service industries like Elec, Gas and Water are owned by the French and Germans, would they cease trading if we pulled out of the EU....i doubt it.

 

[brighton fella]

No we wouldn't.



Thirdly, by cutting free movement of labour within the EU you are restricting supply, and this increases prices and reduces quality.

so what your saying is that we haven't enough skilled workers over here, answer to that is introduce more apprenticeships. it wont happen overnight but its a good enough start. a totally free movement of labour only opens up the floodgates to wasters and piss takers. granted bring in the necessary skills required but do away with such soppy measures like unrestricted boarder control & a totally free movement of labour as this only drives unrest amongst society besides its cost & the massive strain it puts upon the NHS
expenses have mainly risen due to this farcical they call climate change what has not even been proven yet & as a result our businesses are baring the brunt by being charged unnecessary silly money at the same time you have the likes of china & india creating high fuel omissions and fossil fuel like no tomorrow. ask yourself this what difference at all will our tiny input of low omissions make when you compare it to the countries I have raised..apart from putting a financial strain on our businesses.

 

[El Presidente]

I'm all in favour of apprentices, but

(a) You need skilled people to deliver and coach the apprentices, and

(b) You need a supply of young people who want to train for them.

Neither of those conditions are being met at present.

 

[Hamilton]

Seeing as most of our service industries like Elec, Gas and Water are owned by the French and Germans, would they cease trading if we pulled out of the EU....i doubt it.

Centrica and British Gas are not owned by the French or the Germans or the Russians. It's a highly profitable business. It pays significant amounts of tax to the UK exchequer. However, Ed Milliband and some Tories would like it broken up. He'd like to break up a British company.

I wonder who would buy the different parts? Not long ago Gazprom had their eye on Centrica but were batted away. They have deep pockets.

To your point, it would be not impossible, but increasingly difficult for many businesses to do business here, just as it would be harder for us to do business in Europe.

I'm hopefully about to win a £500k pitch with a German company. It will guarantee around 15 jobs in the UK and we'll be using a host of other uk suppliers to provide services. The German business in questions knows it can do easy business with us.

Conversely, I've done business with Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Hong Kong where not only is it harder, but there is very little protection for us when we enter into a business agreement. It's far riskier. It's not going to stop me doing it, but the ease with which I can do business in the EU as opposed to elsewhere can't be underestimated.

 

[Soulman]

Centrica and British Gas are not owned by the French or the Germans or the Russians. It's a highly profitable business. It pays significant amounts of tax to the UK exchequer. However, Ed Milliband and some Tories would like it broken up. He'd like to break up a British company.

Ok, i did say "most".......like Southern Water, N Power, Eon, EDF etc. Even Scottish and Southern Energy – Based in Perth, Scotland since its inception in 1998. Scottish Power, now owned by Spanish firm Iberdrola.
Then you have Thames, Severn, Yorkshire, Northumbria etc, all water companies owned overseas.
FOREIGN-owned energy firms are hammering UK customers with much bigger price rises than in their own countries,
Here is just a little list.......spot the UK owners.
http://www.nationwideutilities.com/energy-suppliers.html

 

[brighton fella]

I'm all in favour of apprentices, but

(a) You need skilled people to deliver and coach the apprentices, and

(b) You need a supply of young people who want to train for them.

Neither of those conditions are being met at present.

don't you think that if schools were to welcome that sort of thing a lot more rather than encourage our kids a false hope and sense of security at some poxy university it would make some big difference ?
there seems to be far to many kids going to university these days rather than taking up a properly skilled job in a workshop, it should be made more encouraging and available than it is.

 

[cunning fergus]

No we wouldn't.

I'm currently working in the EU for a few days at present, my phone costs are capped by the EU as it has reduced and abolished many charges. Withdrawal would mean that these cost caps would no longer be applicable in the UK, and so some costs would increase as a result of exit.

Secondly, you are assuming that there are zero costs in setting up bilateral trade agreements with the EU. Given the EU's relationship with the US this is highly unlikely, so the cost of imports would potentially rise. In addition administrative costs of monitoring transactions with EU countries would rise, due to increased paperwork, and these costs would be passed onto the consumer.

Thirdly, by cutting free movement of labour within the EU you are restricting supply, and this increases prices and reduces quality.

Well If you flew there maybe the additional EU taxes on flights has offset the savings on mobile phone calls?

Either way that is not the point, we pay extra in many many different ways to support the EU in its current incarnation, and this does not benefit the consumer. The CAP is a prime example of how the EU keep costs high..........it is protectionist in nature and not a benevolent free trade zone, which frankly is what it should be, if anything.

Restricting the movement of labour does not equate to a detrimental impact on a country, if managed appropriately it will maintain its internal labour market to meet demand, over supply (as we have seen since in the last 10 years) has pushed many many peoples wages down. As Labour have already accepted.

 

[El Presidente]

Ah, so you want a managed labour market, good stuff comrade!

 

[brighton fella]

Ah, so you want a managed labour market, good stuff comrade!

well it hasn't been properly managed up until now. its about time we had someone with a bit of working knowledge & experience running the show instead of a bunch of smug college kids who's amateurish behaviour at very best is clearly not good enough & out of touch with society.

 

[El Presidente]

well it hasn't been properly managed up until now. its about time we had someone with a bit of working knowledge & experience running the show instead of a bunch of smug college kids who's amateurish behaviour at very best is clearly not good enough & out of touch with society.

Wise words BF!

 

[brighton fella]

Wise words BF!

nothing wise about it at all just common sense.

 

[cunning fergus]

Ah, so you want a managed labour market, good stuff comrade!

Yes I do, and if that is considered by some to be a communist step so be it, the fact is many other capitalist countries around the world control their internal labour markets by restricting access to workers and they are economically successful. If it was such a good idea they would be pulling down their own border controls.........but they haven't.

At the heart of this of course is national sovereignty, and this has been sacrificed on the alter of European economic imperialism courtesy of the EU.

Capitalism at any cost is not acceptable, and certainly not for a country that has fought for its independence in the face our European aggrandisement.

 

[El Presidente]

Yes I do, and if that is considered by some to be a communist step so be it, the fact is many other capitalist countries around the world control their internal labour markets by restricting access to workers and they are economically successful. If it was such a good idea they would be pulling down their own border controls.........but they haven't.

At the heart of this of course is national sovereignty, and this has been sacrificed on the alter of European economic imperialism courtesy of the EU.

Capitalism at any cost is not acceptable, and certainly not for a country that has fought for its independence in the face our European aggrandisement.

Great stuff CF, Freedom for Tooting!

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Great stuff CF, Freedom for Tooting!

let the voters do the talking on the 22nd ,to much tit for tat on this thread
regards
DR