[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[jcdenton08]

Being flippant, two posters is a small handful.
I’m sorry those two have given you a hard time, and I know what that’s like.

But you can see how nuanced debate can so easily be shut down by “YOU’RE TORY SCUM” type replies, whether it’s true or not. It’s a bad look.

 

[WATFORD zero]

But you can see how nuanced debate can so easily be shut down by “YOU’RE TORY SCUM” type replies, whether it’s true or not. It’s a bad look.

A post like that is against NSC rules and should be reported

 

[Weststander]

A couple of things:

• Stop wasting money on expensive contracts for mates - that will be a start.
• Gradually renationalise the railways when contracts end and/or franchises underperform - that will a) reduce subsidies b) improve investment (as the money will be spent on doing something rather than just going to overseas shareholders).

There will be others.

I want a nationalised, one entity rail operation. But it will still cost the taxpayer £10b’s a year and there won’t be a reduction in ticket prices. The reason, the cash paid out in dividends is minuscule relative to rail fare income and subsidies.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But you can see how nuanced debate can so easily be shut down by “YOU’RE TORY SCUM” type replies, whether it’s true or not. It’s a bad look.

I agree, but you can see I have never ever posted that. Don’t treat all posters the same because of two people who have a lack of vocabulary.

 

[jcdenton08]

I agree, but you can see I have never ever posted that. Don’t treat all posters the same because of two people who have a lack of vocabulary.

Fair play.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You right wingers appear to thrive on a self generated siege mentality. We're not all out to get you, we are all simply to your left

Precisely. There is an important place in the UK for the entrepreneur and risk taker. They need freedom and encouragement, but we also need laws to minimise the damage that can be done by unwise risk taking (and the actions of some who are crooks). Blair understood that a mixed society that allowed invention to thrive, while helping the less able to better their lot, is the way forward. There should be no us and them, which means business not being seen by employees as the enemy, and employees not being seen by entrepreneurs simply as chattels and prey.

The tories have been 'rebalancing' in one direction and we now need some rebalancing the other way. Hopefully without 'culture wars' being replaced by 'class war' (which seems unlikely under Starmer, much to the chagrin of the hard left - who can stay in their box).

 

[tedebear]

I'll take that as 'not a bloody clue' then.

Bit like the current government in power!

 

[rogersix]

Being flippant, two posters is a small handful.
I’m sorry those two have given you a hard time, and I know what that’s like.

it's not exactly a "hard time", lots of right wingers misunderstand the political spectrum, and with a largely right wing press, they assume that they're commonsensible, middle of the road, centrist types. it is mildly amusing how upset some of them become when the blimmin obvious is pointed out, ah well

 

[rogersix]

Precisely. There is an important place in the UK for the entrepreneur and risk taker. They need freedom and encouragement, but we also need laws to minimise the damage that can be done by unwise risk taking (and the actions of some who are crooks). Blair understood that a mixed society that allowed invention to thrive, while helping the less able to better their lot, is the way forward. There should be no us and them, which means business not being seen by employees as the enemy, and employees not being seen by entrepreneurs simply as chattels and prey.

The tories have been 'rebalancing' in one direction and we now need some rebalancing the other way. Hopefully without 'culture wars' being replaced by 'class war' (which seems unlikely under Starmer, much to the chagrin of the hard left - who can stay in their box).

indeed, it does seem blindingly obvious (to patriots)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm not expecting much in terms of positive change so it's more a case of what they won't do (hopefully!). I don't expect a Labour government attempting to erode workers' rights or agitating to exit the ECHR. That's about it but hope to be proven wrong.

What about pint bottles for wine?

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

What about pint bottles for wine?

It'll add a touch of my class to my late night sessions in the Skinnergate 'Spoons.

 

[Bodian]

Whoever runs there country is limited in what they can do. The more radical and impactful the intervention the more risky it is (for going wrong). So to look forward we need to think about where we are and how we got there.

Looking back over the last 50 years, the first radical and impactful measures I noted were the selling of council houses and the privatization of nationalized industry. I objected to the first on the grounds that the sales were at knock down prices, and stank of electoral bribe. It worked as the latter, and created a big expansion in working class tories. Sell at market value and I'd have been relaxed. Albeit who would be able to afford to buy their council house at market value? The privatizations were initially to take some millstones (like British Steel and the docks) off our back. But it soon turned into another electoral bribe, with the sales all done at below market value, meaning some made a killing. Tell Sid. Yes I know the GPO was shit, but why not fix it instead of selling it, so that the best bits could be profit-ized and the rest left to rot?

So that was radical and it stank and it worked for the beneficiaries. But what are we left with? A very crap and expensive rail network. A very crap, profiteering, foreign-owned and polluting water 'business'. Jewels like British Aerospace making private profit.

And we went in then out of the EU, no engagement for years after joining (English arrogance), the bluster and hubris, and then the flounce.

We move on and with no gimmicks left and no policies other than 'culture wars', the tories are bereft.

So what of Labour? Ten decent years under Blair where society became nicer, less prejudicial, with individual rights (to be human) protected. A decline in bullying in the workforce. For me a transformation from massive mortgage rates and shit pay to decent pay and a huge increase in standard of living. All without 'tea and biscuits at number ten'. Oh and a virtual end to 'The Troubles'. Not radical enough, some say, in that the privatized industries were not re-nationalized. That was a pragmatic decision, but in general it was no longer possible to turn back that particular clock without making new laws so it became legal to steal shares of 'ordinary men and women' and force foreign owners to sell back our railway system (etc.).

With a new labour government I'll be happy to see an end to the gimmicks (like Rwanda), the cronyism (how much taxpayers money was spunked making the likes of 'Lady' Mone richer), and the inability to engage with our neighbours. They will need to fix the border in the Irish Sea, something Johnson glibly dismissed as a mere detail. And they will have to raise money to pay for infrastructure upgrades. Our road are a mess. The North Kent railway was quietly renationalized when the French owners did a flit with the Covid payments (brilliant oversight by the tory government - not), so each franchise renewal will need to be done on terms that favour the commuter. I suspect this may trigger a cascade that ends up with rail going back to public ownership. This will take years, though. No magic wand.

For me they don't need to do a lot right away. Let them just stop doing all the shitty wanky and absurd things the tories have been doing, first. It will take many years to mend all the broken systems. The NHS is f***ed. Labour could fix that by making it easy for all the Singaporean, West Indian and other nurses and doctors to do what they always did before the great Culture War and the Brexit Bonus took hold - come here easily to work, without the threat of being deported at any moment on a technicality. Ditto the fruit picking here in Kent. Of course this risks a backlash, led by the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage, who will accuse Labour of undemocratic betrayal of Brexit. Brace yourself.

And so none of that will go in the manifesto, and nor should it.

My advice to lifelong tories is to brace yourself for a slow reversal of the cockwomblery. Try to not start shrieking about transgender tax increases and the destruction of the British way of life. Think about what is important, not just to you and your family, but to the society in which you live, the NHS, our schools (battered by Dalek inspectors who famously drove a decent head to suicide recently). Don't get sucked into f***ing culture wars. Don't imagine we cannot speak to the French or the EU in case we get a disease. Savour what you have. Be part of society and kind renewal. Don't hanker for the days when Britain strutted the world stage (our total lack of traction over Israel /Gaza should give a clue about our global clout these days). I think and I hope that Starmer and chums will lead us gently in this direction.

So, asking exactly what we will spend on what and how it will be paid for is a reasonable question, but if it is your main concern, it is a question you should also address to the tories. Those lying, cheating, shallow, devious ****s who have done f*** all for the UK these last 13 years except run down our national institutions while enriching themselves and their friends. Dithering over Covid. Getting Brexit done with no regard for the day after tomorrow. How are the tories going to transform themselves from the party that has raped the country to a party that will rebuild it? There's my equivalent question, and one you should also be asking.

Top top post HWT. I do hope you don't get any sarky 'TLDR' replies. This is the sort of post that should be read by all.

I write reports at work, and the managers above me often want to make them shorter. Until I point out that if they want those who they are aimed at to have a full understanding of what it is they are meant to be deciding - then they have to read and understand the background. These things can't / shouldn't be decided on a superficial, glib one liner.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

never quite understand the obsession with rail. anyway, it's been current gov policy to do exactly as you say, no new franchises for years and they've slowly been re-absorbed into public ownership. the subsidies continue because it f***ing expensive and investment goes mostly into all those engineering works so many complain about. nothing about rail, or changing contracts for that matter, will help the economy grow. every party wants this, i hear naff all on how. hint, spending a lot on green energy is not sustainable growth, it's spending to fluff up the numbers for year or two. it may well be, since most western countries have similar problem, that we have exhausted economic growth with current models and thinking.

Yes but this is not tory policy (to renationalize). Their hand has been forced because their policy was wrong and is failing.

"Many of these franchises have failed in private hands. ScotRail, Welsh Railways, the East Coast mainline, Transpennine, Northern, Southeastern and the Caledonian Sleeper are all now in public ownership."

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

never quite understand the obsession with rail. anyway, it's been current gov policy to do exactly as you say, no new franchises for years and they've slowly been re-absorbed into public ownership. the subsidies continue because it f***ing expensive and investment goes mostly into all those engineering works so many complain about. nothing about rail, or changing contracts for that matter, will help the economy grow. every party wants this, i hear naff all on how. hint, spending a lot on green energy is not sustainable growth, it's spending to fluff up the numbers for year or two. it may well be, since most western countries have similar problem, that we have exhausted economic growth with current models and thinking.

If you don't understand the obsession with rail, I can only assume you don't regularly try and commute by train.
At a time when pretty much everybody agrees that more people should be travelling by train, the railways are a total disaster area.
I'm not clear on how you work out that investment in the rail doesn't boost growth. If you spend £millions on improving the railways those £millions go into the economy even before you get Any benefit from people actually being able to travel around the country spending money on things.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Yes but this is not tory policy (to renationalize). Their hand has been forced because their policy was wrong and is failing.

"Many of these franchises have failed in private hands. ScotRail, Welsh Railways, the East Coast mainline, Transpennine, Northern, Southeastern and the Caledonian Sleeper are all now in public ownership."

Northern and LNER are, in my experience, half decent.
Transpennine are still useless but they're certainly no worse than they were before the franchise was taken away.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Northern and LNER are, in my experience, half decent.
Transpennine are still useless but they're certainly no worse than they were before the franchise was taken away.

My understanding is the fails are fails because they could not be made to make money and have been renationalized because they are public services (doh!) in as much as they are necessary to the local infrastructure. That's whether the service was decent or shite. Down here our service was good before privatization with slam door trains. After the franchising the new 'owners' were given loads of new fancy trains, held back by the snide tories till after the franchising. These turned out to be shite, with the toilets breaking down regularly, and doors jamming. These seem to have been upgraded, but with shitty narrow seats with no arms, which aggravate my back (scoliosis). And the costs have gone through the roof. The ticketing is labarynthine (if I travel into London early I buy an ordinary single and a super off peak return with a senior rail card - thanks to a clever member of station staff who worked it out for me). Oh and there are always locked toilets, often 'no working toilets' owing to a cleaner dispute that has gone on for more than 5 years. The tories did not renationalize my franchise to make things better. They renationalized because otherwise there would be no trains on the north Kent coast. They have not made anything better, merely pissed of staff by pushing for unmanned stations, and pissed off customers with poor service and high prices. Oh, and they have even binned off first class because they couldn't 'afford' to pay staff to police it, so my seat was always snaffled by wankers travelling to Bromley South and shouty builders travelling back to Medway after a day's cash in hand in London.

 

[BLOCK F]

My understanding is the fails are fails because they could not be made to make money and have been renationalized because they are public services (doh!) in as much as they are necessary to the local infrastructure. That's whether the service was decent or shite. Down here our service was good before privatization with slam door trains. After the franchising the new 'owners' were given loads of new fancy trains, held back by the snide tories till after the franchising. These turned out to be shite, with the toilets breaking down regularly, and doors jamming. These seem to have been upgraded, but with shitty narrow seats with no arms, which aggravate my back (scoliosis). And the costs have gone through the roof. The ticketing is labarynthine (if I travel into London early I buy an ordinary single and a super off peak return with a senior rail card - thanks to a clever member of station staff who worked it out for me). Oh and there are always locked toilets, often 'no working toilets' owing to a cleaner dispute that has gone on for more than 5 years. The tories did not renationalize my franchise to make things better. They renationalized because otherwise there would be no trains on the north Kent coast. They have not made anything better, merely pissed of staff by pushing for unmanned stations, and pissed off customers with poor service and high prices. Oh, and they have even binned off first class because they couldn't 'afford' to pay staff to police it, so my seat was always snaffled by wankers travelling to Bromley South and shouty builders travelling back to Medway after a day's cash in hand in London.

Harry,
You’ve been at it all day. I think you deserve a rest and a glass of something soothing, you must be exhausted. I know I am, just reading all your posts. I’m indulging in the nice bottle of malt whisky that my youngest offspring bought me, so cheers and a very happy new year to you and your family.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

My understanding is the fails are fails because they could not be made to make money and have been renationalized because they are public services (doh!) in as much as they are necessary to the local infrastructure. That's whether the service was decent or shite. Down here our service was good before privatization with slam door trains. After the franchising the new 'owners' were given loads of new fancy trains, held back by the snide tories till after the franchising. These turned out to be shite, with the toilets breaking down regularly, and doors jamming. These seem to have been upgraded, but with shitty narrow seats with no arms, which aggravate my back (scoliosis). And the costs have gone through the roof. The ticketing is labarynthine (if I travel into London early I buy an ordinary single and a super off peak return with a senior rail card - thanks to a clever member of station staff who worked it out for me). Oh and there are always locked toilets, often 'no working toilets' owing to a cleaner dispute that has gone on for more than 5 years. The tories did not renationalize my franchise to make things better. They renationalized because otherwise there would be no trains on the north Kent coast. They have not made anything better, merely pissed of staff by pushing for unmanned stations, and pissed off customers with poor service and high prices. Oh, and they have even binned off first class because they couldn't 'afford' to pay staff to police it, so my seat was always snaffled by wankers travelling to Bromley South and shouty builders travelling back to Medway after a day's cash in hand in London.

The immediate cause of bringing them back into public ownership will have be financial, but in the case of Northern in particular they were widely regarded as a totally incompetent basketcase.
Happily at that time I walked to work so it didn't bother me too much.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

These seem to have been upgraded, but with shitty narrow seats with no arms, which aggravate my back (scoliosis).

I should have added, sorry to hear about that, and I think whoever decided that the best solution to squeezing more people onto the trains was to turn the seats into a glorified ironing board needs taking out and strapping to the third rail.

 

[beorhthelm]

If you don't understand the obsession with rail, I can only assume you don't regularly try and commute by train.
At a time when pretty much everybody agrees that more people should be travelling by train, the railways are a total disaster area.
I'm not clear on how you work out that investment in the rail doesn't boost growth. If you spend £millions on improving the railways those £millions go into the economy even before you get Any benefit from people actually being able to travel around the country spending money on things.

until Covid was a rail commuter for decades, enjoying the subsidy of cheap commute to London. problems with rail are down to management, operations and capacity, which wont change under a different ownership structure. as proven by so many franchises returning to public ownership and problems persist. Network Rail has been publicly owned since 2002! this is all besides the point, which is the notion that a top policy to solve the country's problems is rail and it's nationalisation. it should be somewhere way down the list.