[Politics] Sir Keir Starmer’s route to Number 10

[Is it PotG?]

Thanks prof. Going back to not commenting on political threads.

You won't win against the Guv'nor

 

[dazzer6666]

You won't win against the [deleted for sensitivity]

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Blimey. I’ve got several pals with kids in private education…….many have sacrificed all manner of things to make that happen. None of them live in mansions or drive porsches.

At the end of the day, we choose to spend our disposable income how we want. Well, those of use lucky enough to still have some. I think it's unfair that just because someone chooses to spend theirs on private education they get the VAT taken off. Why is this fair?

 

[A mex eyecan]

At the end of the day, we choose to spend our disposable income how we want. Well, those of use lucky enough to still have some. I think it's unfair that just because someone chooses to spend theirs on private education they get the VAT taken off. Why is this fair?

It isn’t.

 

[A1X]

Is it more unfair for people to be charged VAT because they send their kids to private schools than it is for people to be charged VAT for buying private jets? After all, by doing so they’re freeing up spaces on ordinary flights…

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Go away, Potty.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Is it more unfair for people to be charged VAT because they send their kids to private schools than it is for people to be charged VAT for buying private jets? After all, by doing so they’re freeing up spaces on ordinary flights…

well, if they knock the 20% off the private jet then i’ll certainly get one. It’s the cruel unfair VAT element which has been holding me back.

Think of the benefits for the other ‘poor‘ people. A few extra business class seats available for them on the flights we won’t be taking. A few jobs for those manual worker types making my little treat. Plus by me having private jet we can stay in our holiday retreats longer and spend some extra money in the local shops.

You see we would be kind to others if we get one.

 

[Weststander]

I think the point is the bloke is claiming he is ditching labour over a £200 a month VAT increase, and labour ruling out something that can never happen anyway, and would be an absolute hostage to fortune if not ruled out.

If these are his reasons then he seems a rather shallow self-interested sort of cove (which is fine), hardly likely to be drawn to labour in the first place.

But he is also claiming he is doing the rest of us a favour by putting his kid into private school and appears to want us all to thank him for that.

Which is rather . . . . wanky.

The underlying argument from the left including from James O’Brien (who openly admits all kids are in independent schools) is that VAT on fees will ultimately end the two tier system of the 6% getting the best careers and Durham/Oxbridge places.

It won’t.

In my wide experience of this through clients, colleagues, family, there are two types of families sending their kids private:
a) The very wealthy. They’ll be unaffected by Labour’s VAT move. Their kids will still get the best uni places and highest paid careers.
b) Ordinary folk, many not higher rate taxpayers, who sacrifice everything. Often their offspring were all at sea at state schools due to having SEN’s and/or bullying. These will be the people hit, small nurturing schools run by good people will close. People will turn instead to home schooling, post pandemic this is huge, BBC radio or LBC have recently covered this in detail, Brighton’s been a hotbed for many years. @dazzer6666 was accurate in his first post here. These particular kids rarely go on to Oxbridge, it’s just that tiny classes prevent severe mental issues and they’re able to gain some GCSE’s. Some independent schools are also strong on booting out persistent bullies, whereas state schools have to adhere to a human rights legislation. Those bullies at state schools also disrupt classes.

State school standards won’t rise through an influx of posh kids and teachers. They won’t be there.

My solutions:
1. Better funding of state schools, try to reduce class sizes.
2. The controversial one - Russell universities intakes in law to better reflect the 94%.
3. Positive discrimination in the intake of to sought after public sector careers eg Foreign Office.

 

[dazzer6666]

I think the point is the bloke is claiming he is ditching labour over a £200 a month VAT increase, and labour ruling out something that can never happen anyway, and would be an absolute hostage to fortune if not ruled out.


The underlying argument from the left including from James O’Brien (who openly admits all kids are in independent schools) is that VAT on fees will ultimately end the two tier system of the 6% getting the best careers and Durham/Oxbridge places.

It won’t.

In my wide experience of this through clients, colleagues, family, there are two types of families sending their kids private:
a) The very wealthy. They’ll be unaffected by Labour’s VAT move. Their kids will still get the best uni places and highest paid careers.
b) Ordinary folk, many not higher rate taxpayers, who sacrifice everything. Often their offspring were all at sea at state schools due to having SEN’s and/or bullying. These will be the people hit, small nurturing schools run by good people will close. People will turn instead to home schooling, post pandemic this is huge, BBC radio or LBC have recently covered this in detail, Brighton’s been a hotbed for many years. @dazzer6666 was accurate in his first post here. These particular kids rarely go on to Oxbridge, it’s just that tiny classes prevent severe mental issues and they’re able to gain some GCSE’s. Some independent schools are also strong on booting out persistent bullies, whereas state schools have to adhere to a human rights legislation. Those bullies at state schools also disrupt classes.

State school standards won’t rise through an influx of posh kids and teachers. They won’t be there.

My solutions:
1. Better funding of state schools, try to reduce class sizes.
2. The controversial one - Russell universities intakes in law to better reflect the 94%.
3. Positive discrimination in the intake of to sought after public sector careers eg Foreign Office.

No no no, I ‘misunderstood the narrative’ (only popped back on because you tagged me, I see I’ve been give the honour of a coveted HWT ignore - ah well, I’ll cope ).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think the point is the bloke is claiming he is ditching labour over a £200 a month VAT increase, and labour ruling out something that can never happen anyway, and would be an absolute hostage to fortune if not ruled out.


The underlying argument from the left including from James O’Brien (who openly admits all kids are in independent schools) is that VAT on fees will ultimately end the two tier system of the 6% getting the best careers and Durham/Oxbridge places.

It won’t.

In my wide experience of this through clients, colleagues, family, there are two types of families sending their kids private:
a) The very wealthy. They’ll be unaffected by Labour’s VAT move. Their kids will still get the best uni places and highest paid careers.
b) Ordinary folk, many not higher rate taxpayers, who sacrifice everything. Often their offspring were all at sea at state schools due to having SEN’s and/or bullying. These will be the people hit, small nurturing schools run by good people will close. People will turn instead to home schooling, post pandemic this is huge, BBC radio or LBC have recently covered this in detail, Brighton’s been a hotbed for many years. @dazzer6666 was accurate in his first post here. These particular kids rarely go on to Oxbridge, it’s just that tiny classes prevent severe mental issues and they’re able to gain some GCSE’s. Some independent schools are also strong on booting out persistent bullies, whereas state schools have to adhere to a human rights legislation. Those bullies at state schools also disrupt classes.

State school standards won’t rise through an influx of posh kids and teachers. They won’t be there.

My solutions:
1. Better funding of state schools, try to reduce class sizes.
2. The controversial one - Russell universities intakes in law to better reflect the 94%.
3. Positive discrimination in the intake of to sought after public sector careers eg Foreign Office.

I will repeat, I do not think private schools paying VAT will end the two tier system. In am happy with the two tier system. If you want to spend money on nice things, go ahead.

But don't ask to be VAT exempt if you do so. That's just greedy. I am sure we can agree about that

 

[Weststander]

No no no, I ‘misunderstood the narrative’ (only popped back on because you tagged me, I see I’ve been give the honour of a coveted HWT ignore - ah well, I’ll cope ).

You’re both good people (for example, your unpaid charity work), your initial post portrayed the reality of many people I know. I hope @Harry Wilson's tackle unignore’s you soon

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No no no, I ‘misunderstood the narrative’ (only popped back on because you tagged me, I see I’ve been give the honour of a coveted HWT ignore - ah well, I’ll cope ).

Comment deleted

 

[dazzer6666]

Not you on ignore...<sigh>. I like reading your posts.

You have got it wrong again, though. Tough day at work? .

Yes. Had to have stern words with my gamekeeper about the foxes again and then had a problem at the Porsche garage with the wife’s runabout - meant I had to pick up Tabitha and Sebastian from Ardingly in the bloody Range Rover. FML.

 

[A mex eyecan]

I will repeat, I do not think private schools paying VAT will end the two tier system. In am happy with the two tier system. If you want to spend money on nice things, go ahead.

But don't ask to be VAT exempt if you do so. That's just greedy. I am sure we can agree about that

This with bells on.
Mine isn’t a view formed from envy in the slightest. Private education offers huge benefits and I dare say if I could afford it for my family I just may do so.
My view is purely down to fairness.
There is no real justification as to why they should be VAT exempt whatsoever. It’s not just the vat on school fees that the country misses out on, it’s everything that the school buys, form basic cleaning and washroom products to the countless millions on building works. It’s a colossal sum of money.

I would imagine they even get the reduced VAT taken off their fuel bills. Just think of that the next time you moan about your monthly bill and that you’re struggling to heat your home, or you hear about some poor old soul who sits freezing because they can’t pay for it. Is that fair? No of course it’s not and neither is it defensible.

 

[Weststander]

I will repeat, I do not think private schools paying VAT will end the two tier system. In am happy with the two tier system. If you want to spend money on nice things, go ahead.

But don't ask to be VAT exempt if you do so. That's just greedy. I am sure we can agree about that

It’s not greed. They’re often small schools run by a board of governors for nothing, carrying on a short tradition for example ex grammers. Income matches costs, there’s no huge fund or gifts from alumni. Behind the scenes poor families are given scholarships or bursaries, this is in the old constitution, NOT a recent ploy to get charitable status. There is no profit.

The problem is that the ill informed picture Eton, Brighton College, Johnson and JRM, it’s emotive, people want to screw them over. That world will be completely unaltered by Labour’s VAT move. Gen’s will get the best uni places, studying PPE at Oxbridge, then the top City, arts or government jobs.

People in our spheres will be the ones hurt.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This with bells on.
Mine isn’t a view formed from envy in the slightest. Private education offers huge benefits and I dare say if I could afford it for my family I just may do so.
My view is purely down to fairness.
There is no really justification as to why they should be VAT exempt whatsoever. It’s not just the vat on school fees te country misses out in, it’s everything that the school buys, form basic cleaning and washroom products to the countless millions on building works. It’s a colossal sum of money.

I would imagine they even get the reduced VAT taken off their fuel bills. Just think of that the next time you moan about your monthly bill and that you’re struggling to heat your home, or you hear about some poor old soul who sits freezing because they can’t pay for it. Is that fair? No of course it’s not and neither is it defensible.

Precisely.

 

[A mex eyecan]

It’s not greed. They’re often small schools run by a board of governors for nothing, carrying on a short tradition for example ex grammers. Income matches costs, there’s no huge fund or gifts from alumni. Behind the scenes poor families are given scholarships or bursaries, this is in the old constitution, NOT a recent ploy to get charitable status. There is no profit.

The problem is that the ill informed picture Eton, Brighton College, Johnson and JRM, it’s emotive, people want to screw them over. That world will be completely unaltered by Labour’s VAT move. Gen’s will get the best uni places, studying PPE at Oxbridge, then the top City, arts or government jobs.

People in our spheres will be the ones hurt.

Get what you’re saying, but where do you draw a distinction. Im no expert but I would imagine that the vast majority of private schools expenditure comes via the big guns. Why should they take the proverbial pee just so the rarer examples you put forward get the vat knocked off?

 

[dazzer6666]

Precisely.

Any yet @dazzer6666 unfathomably thinks this argument is 'wanky'. And him, an otherwise sensible chap

Are you being deliberately thick or just provocative? I though HTs unnecessarily patronising response was wanky - not the argument

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s not greed. They’re often small schools run by a board of governors for nothing, carrying on a short tradition for example ex grammers. Income matches costs, there’s no huge fund or gifts from alumni. Behind the scenes poor families are given scholarships or bursaries, this is in the old constitution, NOT a recent ploy to get charitable status. There is no profit.

The problem is that the ill informed picture Eton, Brighton College, Johnson and JRM, it’s emotive, people want to screw them over. That world will be completely unaltered by Labour’s VAT move. Gen’s will get the best uni places, studying PPE at Oxbridge, then the top City, arts or government jobs.

People in our spheres will be the ones hurt.

<sigh>

I did not mean the schools are greedy. I am sure the schools are lovely.

I meant the parents (well, a parent who posts on NSC) who think they should be able to send their kid to a private school and not pay VAT.

And scholarships and bursaries are a matter for the school. Good for them if they do it.

And for the final time, I am not motivated by class envy or a misguided notion that making the parents pay VAT will end the two tier system.

I can draw you a diagram if you like

 

[A mex eyecan]

Precisely.

Any yet @dazzer6666 unfathomably thinks this argument is 'wanky'. And h

deleted my post, probably was a bit out of order