[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[peterward]

No.

It would invite an invasion of the Suwalki gap and cause the fall of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.


Only those that want a massive Putin victory would be supportive of withdrawing troops.

Totally concur, this has to be fought now or later, the same as with Nazi Germany in 1930's. Appesement doesnt work against an insatiable desire for empire.

Bow to a single one his demands now and it will further embolden him and after Ukraine he will demand Georgia or Moldova etc, send NATO troops backwards or demilitarise and leave easy, cost free targets and next he will try and join the 3 baltics with Kaliningrad........ And 100% for sure we will be here all over again with precedent when, as it seems likely now because of Russian aggression, that Sweden and Finland exercise their democratic rights to choose to join NATO.

We simply have to take a stand against the modern day Hitler.

 

[sydney]

this place is a veritable smorgasbord of contemporary information on global issues , i can not overstate how impressed i am.

 

[nicko31]

No.

It would invite an invasion of the Suwalki gap and cause the fall of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.


Only those that want a massive Putin victory would be supportive of withdrawing troops.

Putin's will never be happy until the borders of the former USSR are back in place, let him get away with Ukraine and we'll be knocking on the bordered of Baltic EU member states claiming there are Russian speakers there that need to be part of Russia

He's desperate to destabilise Europe, despite Russia's huge defence force its a small economy only the same size as Spain. Attacking others is all he has, the country is a failure and most still live in poverty

 

[Swansman]

You think the road to peace is to give Putin everything he wants and more?

Yes, the road to peace would be if the West stopped provoking foreign countries into action. Unfortunately our wealth and power is based on imperialism and that will remain the case so we're always either going commit a genocide-robbery or force foreign countries into action through threatening them with the expansion of our borders. Stop doing that and there will be a fair chance of "you stick with yours and we'll stick with ours".

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Totally concur, this has to be fought now or later, the same as with Nazi Germany in 1930's. Appesement doesnt work against an insatiable desire for empire.

Bow to a single one his demands now and it will further embolden him and after Ukraine he will demand Georgia or Moldova etc, send NATO troops backwards or demilitarise and leave easy, cost free targets and next he will try and join the 3 baltics with Kaliningrad........ And 100% for sure we will be here all over again with precedent when, as it seems likely now because of Russian aggression, that Sweden and Finland exercise their democratic rights to choose to join NATO.

We simply have to take a stand against the modern day Hitler.

I think Moldova falls if Ukraine does.

Pretty much a joint operation although we are not at that point yet.

Then I think a pause.


But we will then move on to a reheated Serbia/Bosnia situation - where the Kremlin is more obviously at arms length - within a fairly short time frame.


Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania not at the top of his list for now. But where will we be in 10 years time ?

 

[Eric the meek]

I doubt it.

But on the off chance that you are wrong, it would be a quite a mistake to make, wouldn't it?

Would you advocate disbanding all the military in Sweden, and hope for the best?

If Putin decided he wanted a sauna, would you appeal to his better nature?

 

[sydney]

Yes, the road to peace would be if the West stopped provoking foreign countries into action. Unfortunately our wealth and power is based on imperialism and that will remain the case so we're always either going commit a genocide-robbery or force foreign countries into action through threatening them with the expansion of our borders. Stop doing that and there will be a fair chance of "you stick with yours and we'll stick with ours".

this whole east west thing is working up into a frenzy , china is all over the pacific and Polynesia and most of Australias navy , with an election looming in May , is in dry dock in Perth and Melbourne , apparently northern Queensland and Northern Territory are crawling with American soldiers....wtf...??......strange times mate , is doomsday really just round the corner..?? , if so I've got 5 microdots and a nice bit of bugle in the freezer .....bollox to the lot of it , annoying though as i've just bought a new 4wd but its on finance ...

 

[Eric the meek]

Putin's will never be happy until the borders of the former USSR are back in place, let him get away with Ukraine and we'll be knocking on the bordered of Baltic EU member states claiming there are Russian speakers there that need to be part of Russia

He's desperate to destabilise Europe, despite Russia's huge defence force its a small economy only the same size as Spain. Attacking others is all he has, the country is a failure and most still live in poverty

How do you know he would be happy to stop there? All the evidence of his 20 year tenure suggests it would be unwise to assume that is the case.

 

[Swansman]

But on the off chance that you are wrong, it would be a quite a mistake to make, wouldn't it?

Would you advocate disbanding all the military in Sweden, and hope for the best?

If Putin decided he wanted a sauna, would you appeal to his better nature?

Yes I would advocate disbanding all the military in Sweden. Invest the money in welfare and housing.

What do you mean "if Putin decided he wanted a sauna"? You mean if they wanted to take Finland? A huge part of the Finnish people dont want anti-Russian organisations (such as NATO) in their country so Russia are unlikely to consider it a threat. Joining NATO is an act of aggression and Finland avoid it. Add that they have limited natural resources and any Russian attempt to go for Finland looks very unlikely.

 

[beorhthelm]

Yes, the road to peace would be if the West stopped provoking foreign countries into action. Unfortunately our wealth and power is based on imperialism and that will remain the case so we're always either going commit a genocide-robbery or force foreign countries into action through threatening them with the expansion of our borders. Stop doing that and there will be a fair chance of "you stick with yours and we'll stick with ours".

why are you doing this? in his video, Putin basically declared his intent to reestablish the Russian Empire on Monday. as well as Ukraine, that will include the Baltics, a chunk of Poland and possibly Finland. that is imperialism. no one in the west is asking to force Ukraine to join any western group. thats not imperialism.

 

[Eric the meek]

Yes I would advocate disbanding all the military in Sweden. Invest the money in welfare and housing.

What do you mean "if Putin decided he wanted a sauna"? You mean if they wanted to take Finland? A huge part of the Finnish people dont want anti-Russian organisations (such as NATO) in their country so Russia are unlikely to consider it a threat. Joining NATO is an act of aggression and Finland avoid it. Add that they have limited natural resources and any Russian attempt to go for Finland looks very unlikely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Bong!

 

[Wardy's twin]

Yes I would advocate disbanding all the military in Sweden. Invest the money in welfare and housing.

What do you mean "if Putin decided he wanted a sauna"? You mean if they wanted to take Finland? A huge part of the Finnish people dont want anti-Russian organisations (such as NATO) in their country so Russia are unlikely to consider it a threat. Joining NATO is an act of aggression and Finland avoid it. Add that they have limited natural resources and any Russian attempt to go for Finland looks very unlikely.

Russia actually controls part of what was Finland which they took after their victory in the 2nd Soviet-Finn war. The area had been in dispute by Russia as they said it was stolen after WW1 they wanted it to secure their borders around Leningrad and guess what they started the first Soviet-Finn war after a false flag incident. My contact was with Finnish people was about 45 years ago and they hated the Russians and were aware they could be attacked at any point.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I think Moldova falls if Ukraine does.

Pretty much a joint operation although we are not at that point yet.

Then I think a pause.


But we will then move on to a reheated Serbia/Bosnia situation - where the Kremlin is more obviously at arms length - within a fairly short time frame.


Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania not at the top of his list for now. But where will we be in 10 years time ?

The eastern part of Moldova already has some Russian forces ( armed separatists) there. It is called Transnistria and is a self proclaimed republic.

 

[Swansman]

How do you know he would be happy to stop there? All the evidence of his 20 year tenure suggests it would be unwise to assume that is the case.

I don't "know" if he would be happy to stop there. You can never know for sure. We've had twenty of the calmest and most peaceful years in European history however, based on unwritten borders: the EU which is part/collaborators of the American empire and the old Soviet with a similar relation to Russia. The perfect solution? Obviously not, I never wanted to be part of the American empire and I'm sure there are people in various former Soviet states not exactly thrilled by being tight with Russia... so its not the perfect solution, but its better than all the present alternatives. The status quo was fine but we're never happy, spending a shiteload of money (and perhaps blood) to consolidate ex-Yugoslavia with our empire, then the Baltic states and now Ukraine.

Our everlasting hunger for world domination is what causes this.

The British Empire at its peak controlled 24% of the worlds land area. It is no wonder Russia fears and distrusts the west the same way people here fear and distrust them.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The eastern part of Moldova already has some Russian forces ( armed separatists) there. It is called Transnistria and is a self proclaimed republic.

Indeed.

Who thinks "peacekeepers" will be needed there if Ukraine is invaded ?

Hmmmm.

 

[Swansman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Bong!

Russia actually controls part of what was Finland which they took after their victory in the 2nd Soviet-Finn war. The area had been in dispute by Russia as they said it was stolen after WW1 they wanted it to secure their borders around Leningrad and guess what they started the first Soviet-Finn war after a false flag incident. My contact was with Finnish people was about 45 years ago and they hated the Russians and were aware they could be attacked at any point.

Yes Russia did invade Finland. Stalin had limited interest in Finland itself - all they really have is a lot of trees and they have that in abundance in Russia as well. Incorporating Finland into the Soviet Union would come with huge costs and limited gains. But Finland were pro-west (before and in the beginning of WWII) and Stalin feared that Hitler would annex Finland and attack Soviet from the weaker west-east direction rather than the south-north one, which later proved to be a good guess.

You are right that Finnish people hated Russia for a long time. Naturally. But times have changed, lots of tourists go from Finland to Russia and vice versa, they have some cultural ideas in common. While a lot of people in Finland are suspicious of the Russian government they, as people, generally get along well these days.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't "know" if he would be happy to stop there. You can never know for sure. We've had twenty of the calmest and most peaceful years in European history however, based on unwritten borders: the EU which is part/collaborators of the American empire and the old Soviet with a similar relation to Russia. The perfect solution? Obviously not, I never wanted to be part of the American empire and I'm sure there are people in various former Soviet states not exactly thrilled by being tight with Russia... so its not the perfect solution, but its better than all the present alternatives. The status quo was fine but we're never happy, spending a shiteload of money (and perhaps blood) to consolidate ex-Yugoslavia with our empire, then the Baltic states and now Ukraine.

Our everlasting hunger for world domination is what causes this.

The British Empire at its peak controlled 24% of the worlds land area. It is no wonder Russia fears and distrusts the west the same way people here fear and distrust them.

Are you aware that Russia was our ally from 1941-45?

There is no British Empire and the West are not provoking them. After the Cuban crisis even America de-escalated the nuclear threat.
The Eastern European countries have been released from the USSR and want to keep independent. Russia under Putin wants them back. Glasnost was a great time but Putin is a tyrant.

You have some idealogical notion of peace which will never happen all the time human beings inhabit the earth.

 

[A1X]

Yes, the road to peace would be if the West stopped provoking foreign countries into action. Unfortunately our wealth and power is based on imperialism and that will remain the case so we're always either going commit a genocide-robbery or force foreign countries into action through threatening them with the expansion of our borders. Stop doing that and there will be a fair chance of "you stick with yours and we'll stick with ours".

I'll be honest to not having been watching every single moment of this crisis unfold, but I'm pretty sure that the country doing the provoking is Russia right now. Unless you regard the mere existence of Ukraine as some sort of provocation, in which case WTF?

 

[BBassic]

Swanny sometimes reminds me of that one kid who never quite grew out of his sixth-form "I'm so deep and philosophical" phase.

 

[Swansman]

Are you aware that Russia was our ally from 1941-45?

There is no British Empire and the West are not provoking them. After the Cuban crisis even America de-escalated the nuclear threat.
The Eastern European countries have been released from the USSR and want to keep independent. Russia under Putin wants them back. Glasnost was a great time but Putin is a tyrant.

You have some idealogical notion of peace which will never happen all the time human beings inhabit the earth.

Yes I am aware.

You're right, there is no British Empire but there is a American/Western and we're provoking everyone constantly.

There is no independence for anyone. Not for you, not for us, not for Ukraine. There is no such thing. There should be, but there isnt. Either Ukraine belongs to the Russian oligarchy or to the Western oligarchy. Freedom and independency is not allowed; it has been tried and it always ends with a state coup or similar.

Putin and the Russian oligarchy are indeed tyrants. Same as here. Russia have the wealth and resources to make everyone make decent money, have a decent living standard, roof over their heads and so forth but making the oligarchs richer is the priority. Cruelty. But we're doing the exact same thing: everyone could have a really decent life with roof over our heads and what not but making our oligarchs richer is the priority. Cruelty.

For your last point you're probably right. Luckily we wont remain humans for long and in 100 years there will be peace on this planet.

I'll be honest to not having been watching every single moment of this crisis unfold, but I'm pretty sure that the country doing the provoking is Russia right now. Unless you regard the mere existence of Ukraine as some sort of provocation, in which case WTF?

Right now at this exact moment... arguably. But what is happening now wasnt built overnight. When there is a small protest in Ukraine and American and European corporations and embassys spend money on propaganda to get rid of the democratically elected leader of Ukraine AND then also suggest a new leader... its provoking, to say the least. The whole "either you'll have a pro-western leader or we'll spend blood and money to install one" thing is considered provoking everywhere except in the West, where we believe we are some sort of heroes of freedom and independence.