[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Triggaaar]

There's something about the current situation that makes me feel the existence of NATO holds things back. I'm not arguing here to get rid of NATO (??) but...
- if there were no NATO I believe some countries may have gone in with troops, or at least gifted jets, to aid Ukraine. Maybe Poland and the UK? Yes, Russia may have declared war on them, but then others would come in also: US plus... A gradual increase in the size of the battle against Russia.
- with NATO it's either all in or nothing

That's an interesting thought. If, as in your example, Poland and the UK decided to get involved, and Russia then declared war on us, and therefore other countries (US plus) got involved, then basically we've ended up with the 'all' option. So it's still ended up as an all or nothing scenario, just that there was a short period of time where it was 'some'. The danger with that is that it didn't seem like an all or nothing scenario, which makes it more likely that you'd turn down 'nothing' and end up with 'all'.

And that's ignoring the fact that Russia could have nuked Poland if they got involved, and warned the rest of us to stay out or we'd get the same.

Maybe the fact that we know it's all or nothing, as does Putin, means we're going to work longer and harder on a diplomatic alternative, and sanctions etc. There's no saying yet that they won't work.

 

[Triggaaar]

A better analogy would be, would you stand up for your mate against the bully knowing that the bully was slightly deranged

You mean 'would you stand up to Begbie?' **** no.

and has weapons that could potentially kill millions and change the world and mankind as we know it.

Oh ok, not Begbie then.

 

[Baldseagull]

Similarly, a few years back, I saw a lone guy getting a kicking from 6 bloke's. I could've easily walked past through fear of what could happen to me, but I stepped in to help. I knew at best I was probably going to get a kicking myself, but no way could I just walk past knowing what was happening.
As it happened, I got a couple a couple of lucky hits in which enabled him to get to his feet and we gave a pretty good account of ourselves.
Obviously not the same as what is currently going on but the principal is the same, can we really just stand back and watch?
I fully understand both sides of the argument in terms of do we intervene or not, there is so much at stake no matter what decision is made and I'm genuinely not sure what the right decision would be due to potential outcomes.
My heart says fight, I hate bullies and this wanker should've been put in his place a long time ago. My head says the cost of miscalculation is beyond comprehension and not getting involved is "for the greater good", but as others say, what next? Moldova, Georgia, Finland?
I'm glad it's not me making the decisions at the top.

Did you check to make sure the guy getting a kicking was not a Neo Nazi, was not historically an independant human being and in fact belonged to the other guys, was looking to join a self defence group that would make the kicking harder to deliver in future, spoke the same language as the other guys and therefore was a part of the other guys or any other nonsense that might justify the guy getting a pasting till he agreed to do whatever the other guys wanted him to do, whenever they asked him?

 

[Triggaaar]

Good old USA funding biolabs in Ukraine. What could go wrong?

That's 4 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Then it comes down to has the bottle to fire it first…..I’m not sure Boris or Biden has that bottle, but also won’t get involved for fear of poking the dragon, which leads us back to the original question.

Hmmm obliterating China and Russia.......Really ? But I'll ask the question again who has the bigger balls when it comes to a nuclear attack ? Putin and Xi or Boris and Biden or even the whole of NATO come to that.
My guess it isn't the ever so stable liberal west !

Fire first ?

No one. That is the point.

With ballistic subs and airbourne stealth spirit bombers then "First Strike" isn't a tactic now.

The point is being in no doubt that a nuclear strike results in an equivalent counterstrike.

Take Putin's transparent nuclear blackmail off the table and go from there.

 

[Triggaaar]

I fully understand both sides of the argument in terms of do we intervene or not, there is so much at stake no matter what decision is made and I'm genuinely not sure what the right decision would be due to potential outcomes.
My heart says fight, I hate bullies and this wanker should've been put in his place a long time ago. My head says the cost of miscalculation is beyond comprehension and not getting involved is "for the greater good"

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Great article on our cowardice in Ukraine and how Putin is setting agenda.

https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/oksana-bashuk-hepburn-why-is-putin-still-in-charge-of-the-wests-agenda/

NATO
No Action Talk Association

We need to get off Putin's pre drawn up plan and use all means to shape events going forwards ourselves.

We need to be brave and seize the initiative from him.

 

[Triggaaar]

NATO
No Action Talk Association

I'm saying nothing

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Great article on our cowardice in Ukraine and how Putin is setting agenda.

https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/oksana-bashuk-hepburn-why-is-putin-still-in-charge-of-the-wests-agenda/

NATO
No Action Talk Association

It's a long read but sums up defensive action and detente.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/declassified_139339.htm

 

[A1X]

I’m sorry, having fear and anxiety in this situation is completely understandable, but the precedent we set by staying out shames us all.

We are watching genocide, and Putin is, to borrow a phrase, living rent-free in your head. Putin does not wish for all out nuclear war, he wants to live. He will prioritise his own (and Russia’s) survival over his desire for Ukraine, his entire plan relies on our weakness. It can’t be achieved without it.

So you also are relying on the idea that ultimately Putin will "do the right thing". You clearly have a higher opinion of him than I do.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Pritti Patel has backed down on the visa issue by saying emergency visas can be issued to Ukrainian refugees, but not until next week.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-ukrainian-refugees-can-apply-26432828

 

[Notters]

Pritti Patel has backed down on the visa issue by saying emergency visas can be issued to Ukrainian refugees, but not until next week.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-ukrainian-refugees-can-apply-26432828

But only Ukrainians with passports, which is apparently very few of them... and they're not able to get one because, er there's a war on.

 

[Eric the meek]

Brighton Lines posted a link to show me the US was funding Bio labs in Ukraine, the link showed a press release from the American Embassy in Ukraine from April 2020, these were not secret. I accepted from his link that America was funding these labs, which on further reading it seems I was wrong to do so, Ukraine funds the labs, American scientists collaborate. Here are the links.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/ky...n-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

https://ua.usembassy.gov/u-s-ukraine-partnership-to-reduce-biological-threats/

The Gobshite in the video you posted references denials from a fact checking piece in USA Today, here is the link to the article he references. Read and see that he is talking out of his backside.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...us-biolabs-ukraine-disinformation/6937923001/

Well said. Good research.
[MENTION=3357]brighton[/MENTION]Lines, this is the second time you've been caught out.

The first time, you were attempting to prevent the posting of a clip being shown of a hungry Russian soldier being fed by a generous Ukrainian woman, by quoting the Geneva Convention at us.

Now you've taken to posting conspiracy theory crap.

Care to comment?

 

[portslade seagull]

Pritti Patel has backed down on the visa issue by saying emergency visas can be issued to Ukrainian refugees, but not until next week.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-ukrainian-refugees-can-apply-26432828

12 days too late IMO. Government should be ashamed with their stance

 

[Baldseagull]

But only Ukrainians with passports, which is apparently very few of them... and they're not able to get one because, er there's a war on.

Perhaps visa's for all men of fighting age, who according to Ukrainian law should not have left Ukraine could be reasonable, any that were already outside of Ukraine will have passports. The small risk is that in a war situation, prisons may release prisoners, but even then most will not be a danger. If we can't join the fight to a greater degree, we can at least host a good number of the refugees.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

That's 4 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I gave up the moment he suggested that the USA 'encouraged' the invasion !

 

[Razzoo]

Well said. Good research.

[MENTION=3357]brighton[/MENTION]Lines, this is the second time you've been caught out.

The first time, you were attempting to prevent the posting of a clip being shown of a hungry Russian soldier being fed by a generous Ukrainian woman, by quoting the Geneva Convention at us.

Now you've taken to posting conspiracy theory crap.

Care to comment?

http://dilyana.bg/the-pentagon-bio-weapons/

 

[usernamed]

So you also are relying on the idea that ultimately Putin will "do the right thing". You clearly have a higher opinion of him than I do.

He will do the right thing for him, and the right thing for Russia. What does he win by firing nuclear missiles?

Your viewpoint seems to be “he’ll do it coz he’s mad.”

I’ve seen no evidence of instability or madness, he is good at playing psychological games, and he relies on your fear to achieve his goals.

It’s not about him “doing the right thing” in a general sense. He will try to achieve the best outcome for his own grip on power and his country (in a geopolitical sense)

It’s up to us to persuade him to rein in his ambitions to a point where he isn’t invading his neighbours and killing innocents because they see the world differently. He has as much to lose as the rest of us by beginning a nuclear war, it’s simply not on the cards.

I know we are providing background support to Ukraine, but we need to stand with them and fight against this, what’s happening is unacceptable.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

But only Ukrainians with passports, which is apparently very few of them... and they're not able to get one because, er there's a war on.

True. The Ukraine Ambassador to the UK couldn't even get a visa for his wife. You'd think she had diplomatic immunity.

As said previously this government is a disgrace. My own MP, that I think is a Tory lickspittle, has come out and said she can't defend the poor response by the UK nor the obstacles put in the way of refugees getting help.

[tweet]1501505615419559938[/tweet]

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Pritti Patel has backed down on the visa issue by saying emergency visas can be issued to Ukrainian refugees, but not until next week.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-ukrainian-refugees-can-apply-26432828

Whereas the rest ofEurope is not requiring visas AT ALL.