[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[WATFORD zero]

These are indeed different times and the interconnectedness of commerce and trade should have rendered war in Europe to history .

NATO cannot get involved in this without major escalation so it befalls the West to either sit by or come up with some legal reason for entering Ukraine and actively supporting Ukraine in some other guise that Putin cannot spin to his people.

The sanctions are working but slowly and the Ukrainian military have fought bravely and cleverly against a Russian war machine that has been seen to be large but very poor quality in terms of men equipment and leadership. Russia cannot win a ground war in Ukraine using its current methods and loss of materials. So we wait for Putin to be replaced or him to up the stakes by using chemical weapons or hyperbaric munitions and leveling everything.

Its a horrible situation.. and it's all down to one short arsed little psychopath.

Although I can see the case for direct Military action, I still think Sanctions are a better way to stop him due to the interconnectedness of commerce and trade. The only problem is that Sanctions are a bit like the nuclear deterrent in one regard. Two weeks in, we still don't know whether those with their finger on the button are prepared to push that button fully

 

[vegster]

Fascinating thread with a view on military tactics and action and impacts so far…….

[tweet]1501799537773531136[/tweet]

Yes, been keeping an eye on Trent he seems to know what he is on about. Poorly trained and equipped military v well trained and motivated army fighting a just cause = big problems.

 

[portslade seagull]

Also, I'd like to think that the UK is part of a secret conversation working out exactly when to militarise a response.

Unfortunately I suspect Johnson is simply delaying the full force of, er, sanctions*, till all his mates have got their money safe.

*The most jolly well severe sanctions, I must emphasize. World beating sanctions, in fact.

As some Ukrainian diplomat has now said, any Russian money currently frozen should now only be released to rebuild the damage caused

 

[A1X]

I agree but disagree. NATO is a defensive alliance and should not get involved. The West itself - probably the US, UK and France - should.

And you think Putin will differentiate between them acting individually and NATO acting as a whole? So what happens when the Russians attack the forces of the UK, France or the US, after all "an attack on one is an attack on all" under the NATO agreement.

At the moment we're letting a bully get away with genocide and the destruction of a democratic country all for his own warped desires.

I know, and it's shit. I'm not happy about any of this. But the alternative is potentially far, far worse. Sometimes the lesser of two evils is the only recourse.

I've said it already but it has the air of 1938. We sat back and accepted Hitler's invasion of Austria ( and he then started to round up the Jews ). Our response - "You naughty boy but not our problem". He then invaded Czechoslovakia - our response "You're even naughtier but we'll leave you be".

The problem with this analogy is that in 1938 Britain and France had absolutely no choice. France (as usual) was in a state of political turmoil and had a military which had barely advanced beyond the one which rode into battle in 1914 (indeed half the problem with the failure of the French to defend the Ardennes in 1940 was that the French military HQ had not one single telephone line leading to it, meaning all the messages from the ground had to travel 20-30 miles by courier). Britain had basically disarmed other than having a small expeditionary force and a powerful navy (as was ever thus in the centuries beforehand) as it was more concerned with the Empire and growing unrest in parts of that. We could no more have fought Germany or militarily involved ourselves in Czechoslovakia in 1938 as flown in the air. On which note the RAF wasn't even vaguely prepared to defend the UK from air attack until late 1939 / early 1940. The process of rearmament started after Czechoslovakia, but it was far too late to do anything then.

In WWII, if we had dealt with the issue early on we could have saved millions of lives - and over six years of bloody conflict. Once again we're sitting back watching a dictator invade a peaceful country. What if he goes to Georgia next ? Do we do the same as we did for Czechoslovakia ? Maybe Moldova or even Finland or Sweden ? Do we sit back and wait for it to be a NATO member country ? If we do then it's no different to Chamberlain and "Peace is our time"..... and that worked out really well !

Nope, the time to deal with this is now .... and quickly before it gets worse - and that means military intervention not a few shoulder launched weapons.

First they came .... etc

And in the final seconds before us and our families, friends, loved ones and indeed anyone we've ever known are incinerated alive, how much comfort will you draw from the idea that "well at least we did the right thing"? I can't speak for you but my answer would likely be "not much", I'd rather we weren't about to be vaporised in the first place. Sometimes, Realpolitik really is the best option.

 

[dazzer6666]

Abramovich now sanctioned.

 

[vegster]

Abramovich now sanctioned.

I do hope that he has been unable to sell his football club in time ?

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Abramovich now sanctioned.

after he has had plenty of time to squirrel away a fortune.

 

[wehatepalace]

You realise that the bully's apparent derangement is just an act and show the bully your equally destructive weapons and ask him if he feels lucky. You also make sure the bully's only Chinese friend knows they won't survive the conflict either.

Hmmm obliterating China and Russia.......Really ? But I'll ask the question again who has the bigger balls when it comes to a nuclear attack ? Putin and Xi or Boris and Biden or even the whole of NATO come to that.
My guess it isn't the ever so stable liberal west !

 

[raymondo]

These are indeed different times and the interconnectedness of commerce and trade should have rendered war in Europe to history .

NATO cannot get involved in this without major escalation so it befalls the West to either sit by or come up with some legal reason for entering Ukraine and actively supporting Ukraine in some other guise that Putin cannot spin to his people.

The sanctions are working but slowly and the Ukrainian military have fought bravely and cleverly against a Russian war machine that has been seen to be large but very poor quality in terms of men equipment and leadership. Russia cannot win a ground war in Ukraine using its current methods and loss of materials. So we wait for Putin to be replaced or him to up the stakes by using chemical weapons or hyperbaric munitions and leveling everything.

Its a horrible situation.. and it's all down to one short arsed little psychopath.

If he uses chemical weapons on an encircled Kyiv (god forbid) I could see 'nato' or some countries independently going in, to create a humanitarian corridor out of the city
...and Wallace said yesterday that his Russian counterpart has admitted the use of hyperbaric weapons already

 

[beorhthelm]

press conference with Russian/Ukrainian Foreign ministers shortly. though seem to be seperate, not together.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Chelsea to operate on a special license but the sale on hold, only season ticket holders can go to future games, no merchandise sales, no player transfers or new contracts.

[tweet]1501852399417401347[/tweet]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As some Ukrainian diplomat has now said, any Russian money currently frozen should now only be released to rebuild the damage caused

I'm neither a polirician nor soldier nor diplomat.

However, dithering over non military interventions like the one you mentioned has been shameful (in the UK - others acted more promptly). I was not kidding about Johnson waiting till his Russian pals, and Brits investing in Russia, had made safe their money before trickling in the sanctions.

I could tolerate a lack of military intervention had we and our allies gone in more swiftly with defunding Russia. But no, it was dither.

So, to be fair, I am not sure I'd trust our leaders to manage a military intervention without cocking it all up. Afghanistan, Iraq, Ethiopia, Vietnam, Korea, El Salvador . . . . the last time 'we' did anything with lasting effect was when Japan surrendered.


Oh.

 

[peterward]

Great article on our cowardice in Ukraine and how Putin is setting agenda.

https://kyivindependent.com/opinion/oksana-bashuk-hepburn-why-is-putin-still-in-charge-of-the-wests-agenda/

NATO
No Action Talk Association

 

[usernamed]

And you think Putin will differentiate between them acting individually and NATO acting as a whole? So what happens when the Russians attack the forces of the UK, France or the US, after all "an attack on one is an attack on all" under the NATO agreement.



I know, and it's shit. I'm not happy about any of this. But the alternative is potentially far, far worse. Sometimes the lesser of two evils is the only recourse.



The problem with this analogy is that in 1938 Britain and France had absolutely no choice. France (as usual) was in a state of political turmoil and had a military which had barely advanced beyond the one which rode into battle in 1914 (indeed half the problem with the failure of the French to defend the Ardennes in 1940 was that the French military HQ had not one single telephone line leading to it, meaning all the messages from the ground had to travel 20-30 miles by courier). Britain had basically disarmed other than having a small expeditionary force and a powerful navy (as was ever thus in the centuries beforehand) as it was more concerned with the Empire and growing unrest in parts of that. We could no more have fought Germany or militarily involved ourselves in Czechoslovakia in 1938 as flown in the air. On which note the RAF wasn't even vaguely prepared to defend the UK from air attack until late 1939 / early 1940. The process of rearmament started after Czechoslovakia, but it was far too late to do anything then.



And in the final seconds before us and our families, friends, loved ones and indeed anyone we've ever known are incinerated alive, how much comfort will you draw from the idea that "well at least we did the right thing"? I can't speak for you but my answer would likely be "not much", I'd rather we weren't about to be vaporised in the first place. Sometimes, Realpolitik really is the best option.

I’m sorry, having fear and anxiety in this situation is completely understandable, but the precedent we set by staying out shames us all.

We are watching genocide, and Putin is, to borrow a phrase, living rent-free in your head. Putin does not wish for all out nuclear war, he wants to live. He will prioritise his own (and Russia’s) survival over his desire for Ukraine, his entire plan relies on our weakness. It can’t be achieved without it.

 

[pb21]

press conference with Russian/Ukrainian Foreign ministers shortly. though seem to be seperate, not together.

I just read that it will be to announce a Zelensky/Putin summit.

Edit: to arrange, not announce .

 

[beorhthelm]

sounds like nothing from the talks yet, just will continue talks.

 

[Eric the meek]

I just read that it will be to announce a Zelensky/Putin summit.

Edit: to arrange, not announce .

Is there a live stream?

Mind you, it might be a bit one-sided. Zelensky has run rings round Putin up until now.

 

[pb21]

Is there a live stream?

Mind you, it might be a bit one-sided. Zelensky has run rings round Putin up until now.

No, I just saw a tweet, no video or anything like that.

 

[Baldseagull]

Good old USA funding biolabs in Ukraine. What could go wrong?

Brighton Lines posted a link to show me the US was funding Bio labs in Ukraine, the link showed a press release from the American Embassy in Ukraine from April 2020, these were not secret. I accepted from his link that America was funding these labs, which on further reading it seems I was wrong to do so, Ukraine funds the labs, American scientists collaborate. Here are the links.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/ky...n-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

https://ua.usembassy.gov/u-s-ukraine-partnership-to-reduce-biological-threats/

The Gobshite in the video you posted references denials from a fact checking piece in USA Today, here is the link to the article he references. Read and see that he is talking out of his backside.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...us-biolabs-ukraine-disinformation/6937923001/

 

[danielson81]

Press conference now, Comical Ali Lavrov spouting rubbish as usual,

Some quotes -

Asked about how the war is developing from Russia's perspective, he says, through an interpreter, that it is a "special operation" and it is "proceeding to plan overall".

Asked if Russia has any plans to attack other countries, Lavrov says they do not and repeats the Russian position that it has not attacked Ukraine.

He repeated Russian claims that "civilians are being used as hostages" by what he described as "so-called territorial defence forces". They are being used "as human shields", he asserts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/wor...29d142ec502b53cd481790&pinned_post_type=share