[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[vegster]

We are now giving Ukraine more ground to air missiles..

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Has Biden given Ukraine those jets yet?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

We are now giving Ukraine more ground to air missiles..

That is probably a better idea from a military point of view.

It would be hard for the Ukranian airforce to last long in a few older planes

 

[Baldseagull]

I don't trust anything they say. I believe the Russians ARE capable of taking and holding Kyiv.
- they have the firepower from aerial bombardment, over time
- their forces have an almost half circle around Kyiv already
- I don't think they'd worry much about destroying a number of beautiful churches, as the Ukrainian orthodox church split from the Russian church ( and Lavrov's chat with the Pope didn't seem to change anything...)
- getting there would cost enormous damage to the Russian military machinery and troops, costly and time consuming to rebuild
- Russian bonds are heading to junk status in a couple days...I'm no economist but that's' probably not great for them to borrow funds

If Russia are concerned about anything, maybe it's the last two points

I agree, that if just winning the war was Putins aim, then it can be done.
I disagree that shelling Kiev to bits is not a problem for Putin, he wants a victory parade around what he has called the Mother of Russian Cities, not round a pile of rubble. If he does end up destroying the city, he will have to try and sell that as Ukrainians having done it.

 

[raymondo]

My uninformed guess would be that you are right.

He can still 'win' in pure military terms. But it seems that the longer this goes on the harder it will be for Putin to stop the tide of public opinion turning against him. Russia isn't North Korea, people are used to connecting with the rest of the world in different ways. It will be impossible to shut off the flow of information completely. Putin has only been able to operate as he has because he has had the majority of Russia behind him. And while he probably still has that now (who the hell really knows), the harder he pushes, the quicker public opinion may shift.

If that is the case, then he needs to find (and to be given) a way to get out while claiming some element of success.

That may save him in the short term (he would then be able to blame any continued sanctions on the West and thus try and rebuild his popularity).

But longer term he will probably be toast anyway. The Russian economy is screwed and the truth about what is happening now in Ukraine will leak out into wider Russian society in time. Which is why (in addition to the far more important benefit of stopping the war and avoiding the risk of nuclear annihilation) it may be a good strategy to give him just enough room to retreat with some 'dignity' now and work on a long term strategy, given his weakened position, to support the Russian people to oust him in their own time.

Hopefully he will come to face justice for his crimes. But even if he does end up escaping that, my view is that stopping the war as quickly and completely as possible is the number one priority. Pushing him to his limit, with no way out, is too dangerous. Certainly for ordinary Ukrainians and potentially for the rest of us as well.

You sound very sensible... I hope you are right

 

[raymondo]

Has Biden given Ukraine those jets yet?

Not happening

 

[raymondo]

I agree, that if just winning the war was Putins aim, then it can be done.
I disagree that shelling Kiev to bits is not a problem for Putin, he wants a victory parade around what he has called the Mother of Russian Cities, not round a pile of rubble. If he does end up destroying the city, he will have to try and sell that as Ukrainians having done it.

True, hopefully, but I'm sure the Russians could green screen their victory parade and superimpose it on a tourist video of Kyiv - they'd sell that on state TV.

BY the bye, some vehicles captured by Ukrainian forces contained Russian 'parade' uniforms

 

[atomised]

Has Biden given Ukraine those jets yet?

Americans came out pretty quickly after Poland made the offer to say it wouldn't happen

 

[jcdenton08]

BY the bye, some vehicles captured by Ukrainian forces contained Russian 'parade' uniforms

A reminder, could Ukrainian civilians please stay off the battlefield at the final whistle, so that Vladimir and the lads can do their parade of honour.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

For a different perspective (Russians are victims as well), take a look at this:

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/worl...ldiers-loved-ones-marquardt-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn

(Warning: it's a difficult watch).

That's right. Ukraine, the invaded country, has got a hotline for missing Russian troops, who are the ones invading.
Meanwhile, the invading country has no information about its missing troops.
Indeed, they may have been killed in action, incinerated in Russia's mobile crematoria, and their fate kept from the poor wives, girlfriends and mothers.

You really couldn't make it up.

I'll watch that later after work.

The Russian troops very much are mostly also the victims here ( obviously this doesn't apply to the Wagner sub human mercenaries, or Kadyrov's Chechen thugs ).

 

[vegster]

I agree, that if just winning the war was Putins aim, then it can be done.
I disagree that shelling Kiev to bits is not a problem for Putin, he wants a victory parade around what he has called the Mother of Russian Cities, not round a pile of rubble. If he does end up destroying the city, he will have to try and sell that as Ukrainians having done it.

State TV in Russia is claiming the " Special Operation " is attempting to stop the massive destruction of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government. Beyond parody !

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

We are now giving Ukraine more ground to air missiles..

Nice !

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Forget nuclear weapons, this is a ticking time bomb.

[tweet]1501518951007895554[/tweet]
[tweet]1501518953511800834[/tweet]

 

[jcdenton08]

Forget nuclear weapons, this is a ticking time bomb.

[tweet]1501518951007895554[/tweet]
[tweet]1501518953511800834[/tweet]

Hey, hey look Russia! Bomb this! Let's draw attention to soft targets on social media. Genius. (Not you, the idiots tweeting).

 

[birthofanorange]

Forget nuclear weapons, this is a ticking time bomb.

[tweet]1501518951007895554[/tweet]
[tweet]1501518953511800834[/tweet]

Wouldn't there be back-up generators, in case this happened even accidentally?

 

[pb21]

The Chernobyl thing isn't that big an issue.

Heat load of spent fuel storage pool and volume of cooling water at Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant sufficient for effective heat removal without need for electrical supply

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...08ec6557dfa59b#block-6228acbc8f08ec6557dfa59b

Hopefully it stays this way.

 

[Eric the meek]

Wouldn't there be back-up generators, in case this happened even accidentally?

Yes.

'there is "a special system of security in case of electricity cuts" which will allow the plant to operate for several days using diesel generators.' - German Galushchenko, Ukraine's Energy Minister.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60657155 - scroll down to 12:28.

 

[A1X]

State TV in Russia is claiming the " Special Operation " is attempting to stop the massive destruction of Ukraine by the Ukrainian government. Beyond parody !

I mean, surely even the most brainwashed of people must at that point start asking "hang on...why is that any of our business?"

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yes.

'there is "a special system of security in case of electricity cuts" which will allow the plant to operate for several days using diesel generators.' - German Galushchenko, Ukraine's Energy Minister.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60657155 - scroll down to 12:28.

This Ukraine MP says 48 hours

[tweet]1501537906288218123[/tweet]

 

[DudsFarm]

Try reading some of these articles, unbelievable doesn't do it justice

tass.com/defense