[Football] Right then. After that demonstration... VAR? Yes or No?

[Bold Seagull]

It does not matter, as there will always be a line. If you are a fraction over it you are offside. End of story. People seems to want some fuzzy maybe land to make them feel better....Oooo look the player is in the fuzzy zone and could be randomly on or offside. Bollocks to that.

I don't want some fuzzy land, I want to enjoy the instant excitement of a game of football. I go knowing the officials will be doing their best to get everything right, and I really don't need to know every decision is 100% correct, I just need to know the officials haven't made a calamitous error. If an official is within say 150mm of being right or not, I would just stick with the on field decision, I wouldn't give a shit about your lines until it got outside that 150mm and it could be demonstrated the official has made a 'clear and obvious error'.

Empower the officials and give weight to their decisions. Set a parameter like 'umpire's call' in cricket, 100mm, 150mm, whatever it is, decide on it and say that's the margin we're giving the officials as acceptable human error. Beyond that a decision can then be overturned. It would stop these long reviews of marginal calls that don't need reviewing.

 

[darkwolf666]

Utterl bollocks again! How is it a "rough guess"? It is good to a frame, which is 0.02 s. That is not a "rough guess".
Even if it has an error it is the same this season for everyone. It is, therefore, better than the old system which changed from minute to minute and obviously favoured big teams and players.
Like it or loath it it is now consistent! How can anyone complain about that!? You want something less consistent and you think that is better!? I think you lot are scared of change and just want something to moan about.

Tell you what, let all us stupid people who go along to watch a match, and have done for years, stay at home. Close the terraces (sic) and the stands, make all games behind closed doors, then allow robots to suck the remainder of the life out of the modern game as ALL decisions are made remotely. There will be no mistakes and no favouritism for the big boys!

Welcome to the future of football...

 

[Goring-by-Seagull]

Is the correct answer! Anything that seeks to diminish that moment of joy when you score is wrong.

Like a ref or a lino?

 

[Gazwag]

Utterl bollocks again! How is it a "rough guess"? It is good to a frame, which is 0.02 s. That is not a "rough guess".
Even if it has an error it is the same this season for everyone. It is, therefore, better than the old system which changed from minute to minute and obviously favoured big teams and players.
Like it or loath it it is now consistent! How can anyone complain about that!? You want something less consistent and you think that is better!? I think you lot are scared of change and just want something to moan about.

You seem a bit angry about it, are you part of the design team or something.

VAR is shit, 95% of football supporters who attend games will agree

 

[darkwolf666]

I think 95% of the moan-brigade who are scared of change will agree it is shit. They just can not cope if there is no-one to moan at about an offside call. Takes all the emotion out of the game of you can not abuse a linesman. Boo boo, welcome to the 21st century.

I refer you to post #701

 

[Gazwag]

I think 95% of the moan-brigade who are scared of change will agree it is shit. They just can not cope if there is no-one to moan at about an offside call. Takes all the emotion out of the game of you can not abuse a linesman. Boo boo, welcome to the 21st century.

Seriously you must be fishing, oh and btw "linesmen" is soooo 20th century

 

[darkwolf666]

Why would that happen eh? Utter nonsense. Why do people have such a problem with better calls in football!?

Why wouldn’t it happen? You seem so in love with the idea of football with no “mistakes” by officials, that making all decisions remotely seems the logical conclusion.

How about, with the way technology is going, that all players have implants in them, which will automatically show when they are in an offside position - immediate feed back to VAR headquarters, problem solved.

 

[GT49er]

I think 95% of the moan-brigade who are scared of change will agree it is shit. They just can not cope if there is no-one to moan at about an offside call. Takes all the emotion out of the game of you can not abuse a linesman. Boo boo, welcome to the 21st century.

 

[darkwolf666]

Yup. Face it, it is the truth. Maybe they should form a brakeaway sport where there is terrible bumpy muddy pitches, one sub, backpassss allowed, players can cripple each other without giving away a foul and terrible and inconsistent refereeing. A propper sport that.

Ok, I finally give in... you clearly have no interest in football as a spectator sport. The sport that makes grown men (and women) cry, kiss total strangers in that moment of joy when your club scores, surfing on that moment of total elation.

Enjoy your future football experience!

Or, alternatively

 

[Hugo Rune]

Utterl bollocks again! How is it a "rough guess"? It is good to a frame, which is 0.02 s. That is not a "rough guess".
Even if it has an error it is the same this season for everyone. It is, therefore, better than the old system which changed from minute to minute and obviously favoured big teams and players.
Like it or loath it it is now consistent!

Nope.

Judging when the ball is no longer in contact with the player (who has just made contact with it, directing it to a team mate who could be on or offside) is completely different to judging if the receiving player is onside or not.

The latter is easy and can be done to the millimetre. The former would require some sort of touch sensor in the boot and/or ball. I don’t think VAR officials know when to stop the tape! It makes a fundamental difference to whether it is on or offside.

The whole system is subjective and should be binned off.

 

[darkwolf666]

Why does the correct desicion being made affect any of that? Do you only celebrate and cry when a goal is scored that should have been?

Bored now, bye...

 

[Easy 10]

A line must be drawn to have a "yes" or "no." Where do you draw the line? How far from the line is allowable?

Taking them away on a "wrong" call when they should be taken away. How do you know why the rules were "brought in for?"

The offside rule was brought in to prevent goalhanging, and to stop forwards having a CLEAR advantage (ie head start) over the last defender when the ball is played. Its not supposed to be if someones toe is an inch beyond some pixel line across a screen.

If you're trying to tell me that some of the forensic offside calls we're getting now - where someones knee is deemed a MILLIMETRE in front of the defender - gives a clear advantage to the forward, then I'm afraid you're yapping out of your jacksie. Level is supposed to be onside, and there was this notion of giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. Because if its THAT close, then the advantage is so negligible as makes no difference. And hey - we're all there to see GOALS. The law needs changing, if any part of the forwards body is in line with the defender then he's onside. If its not clear, then the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker, end of.

I cuffing KNEW this VAR would be the thin end of a shitty great wedge. Its there to correct clear and obvious errors, but its being used for aaaallll the marginal shit as well. And its not even being used well either. How the fook Villa didn't get a pen for that Socratis handball ?? Its an absolute shambles.

 

[Hugo Rune]

You clearly have no right to judge given that you think it is when the ball leaves the foot. It is defined as the moment the player makes first contact with the ball.

I was obviously referring to the giver, not the receiver.

Yes, this provides an error depending on how fast the receiving player and defenders are moving.

Phew. We got there in the end[emoji106][emoji106][emoji122][emoji122]

 

[Bold Seagull]

So you are ok with offside being 150.00001 mm but not 0.00001 mm? All you have done is put an offset on the desicion. It is the same thing.

It's not, I haven't just put an offset, I've placed importance and emphasis on human judgement on the field of play. I have built in an allowance for that decision making process to respect the accuracy of a good decision that can be made by a human being. The technology should work to ensure the flow of the game and only correct decisions that a competent human being should have been able to spot - correcting the error, hence the margin.

Technology should support the human decision making of the game. Goal line technology supports officiating because it is a near instantaneous confirmation to the referee. It does not undermine the official, the flow of the game or the experience of spectators.

The trouble you seem to have is seeing any criticism of VAR as a failure to see the game to progress. However this isn't about saying technology is bad, or change is bad, this is about saying the implementation of this particular function of technology is bad, because it is materially changing the experience of watching a game. You seem unable to accept any criticism of the system in place that could have been implemented in any number of different ways.

To me, this has been implemented with the TV companies in mind, they can fill countless minutes discussing decisions ad infinitum. The outcome of the impact on those in the stadium seems to be of little consequence.

 

[Brovion]

Ok, I finally give in... you clearly have no interest in football as a spectator sport. The sport that makes grown men (and women) cry, kiss total strangers in that moment of joy when your club scores, surfing on that moment of total elation.

Enjoy your future football experience!

Or, alternatively

I think you've summed it up. The people who are in favour of VAR (in its current form) aren't interested in football as a spectator sport; football to them is simply an emotionless series of moves and angles. Some people obviously prefer the endless poring over marginal decisions as opposed to the actual sport itself.

 

[Albion my Albion]

The offside rule was brought in to prevent goalhanging, and to stop forwards having a CLEAR advantage (ie head start) over the last defender when the ball is played. Its not supposed to be if someones toe is an inch beyond some pixel line across a screen.

If you're trying to tell me that some of the forensic offside calls we're getting now - where someones knee is deemed a MILLIMETRE in front of the defender - gives a clear advantage to the forward, then I'm afraid you're yapping out of your jacksie. Level is supposed to be onside, and there was this notion of giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. Because if its THAT close, then the advantage is so negligible as makes no difference. And hey - we're all there to see GOALS. The law needs changing, if any part of the forwards body is in line with the defender then he's onside. If its not clear, then the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker, end of.

I cuffing KNEW this VAR would be the thin end of a shitty great wedge. Its there to correct clear and obvious errors, but its being used for aaaallll the marginal shit as well. And its not even being used well either. How the fook Villa didn't get a pen for that Socratis handball ?? Its an absolute shambles.

How about the players learning to not be offside and still scoring exciting goals. The majority of goals are not close at all to being offside.

I don't understand how you know exactly what the rule makers were intending when they set the offside rule.

Every inch or 100th of an inch could count on whether a goal is scored or not. That is truly what makes the game so exciting.

The FIFA referees will get better as they get accustomed to calling the matches with VAR.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I think you've summed it up. The people who are in favour of VAR (in its current form) aren't interested in football as a spectator sport; football to them is simply an emotionless series of moves and angles. Some people obviously prefer the endless poring over marginal decisions as opposed to the actual sport itself.

Personally I don't buy this argument about it taking the emotion out of the game. We've had two home games where there have been VAR decisions. One I didn't even notice was being reviewed (the potential red card in the last game) and the Burn goal I'd been too busy celebrating before realising that it may not be allowed (which, FYI, gave quite the negative emotion at having a disallowed goal). Ultimately there's still a lot of emotion involved and we'll see the positive side of this when one goes our way.

The reality is that in the old system that analysis was taking place over decisions that were incorrect more often than not. Now we're debating whether these decisions should be incorrect or not due to the teething problems of implementing the technology and the subsequent changes in the laws that are happening. But a lot of decisions are correct now which is what we all want and it's good that this debate is happening around how the technology should be implemented and whether the rules need fine tuning to make implementation easier.

I will caveat this with the fact that I'm still on the fence about its current form, but I think we have to bear with it and work through these teething problems. Simple things like micing refs up would make a substantial difference to this process I'd imagine.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

The offside rule was brought in to prevent goalhanging, and to stop forwards having a CLEAR advantage (ie head start) over the last defender when the ball is played. Its not supposed to be if someones toe is an inch beyond some pixel line across a screen.

If you're trying to tell me that some of the forensic offside calls we're getting now - where someones knee is deemed a MILLIMETRE in front of the defender - gives a clear advantage to the forward, then I'm afraid you're yapping out of your jacksie. Level is supposed to be onside, and there was this notion of giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. Because if its THAT close, then the advantage is so negligible as makes no difference. And hey - we're all there to see GOALS. The law needs changing, if any part of the forwards body is in line with the defender then he's onside. If its not clear, then the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker, end of.

I cuffing KNEW this VAR would be the thin end of a shitty great wedge. Its there to correct clear and obvious errors, but its being used for aaaallll the marginal shit as well. And its not even being used well either. How the fook Villa didn't get a pen for that Socratis handball ?? Its an absolute shambles.

They didn't get the handball decision BECAUSE of this warped version of "clear and obvious errors" which is in place to protect referees at the expense of getting the right calls.

Re the offsides, it's been clear since before VAR came in that if any part of your body that you can score with is in an offside position, then you're offside (knees included); this changed from the "clear daylight" rule quite some time ago. It seems to me that the issue you have is with the human made laws, not the technology which is being used to implement said laws.

Last point. In regards to the "forensic analysis" that you reference, a lot of that was to do with the decisions they were getting wrong over previous years i.e. a goal scoring body part is offside and therefore he should've been flagged offside. That analysis is now changing to whether the laws are workable and I think that discussion needs to happen to see such evolution. But it will happen, sooner or later.

 

[darkwolf666]

I may be wrong, but it looks distinctly like referees are waiting for or getting a signal from VAR HQ for every goal. You don't appear to see the refs pointing back towards centre circle as used to be the case when a goal was scored, in case they're made to look a dickhead by VAR.

 

[darkwolf666]

They didn't get the handball decision BECAUSE of this warped version of "clear and obvious errors" which is in place to protect referees at the expense of getting the right calls.

Re the offsides, it's been clear since before VAR came in that if any part of your body that you can score with is in an offside position, then you're offside (knees included); this changed from the "clear daylight" rule quite some time ago. It seems to me that the issue you have is with the human made laws, not the technology which is being used to implement said laws.

Last point. In regards to the "forensic analysis" that you reference, a lot of that was to do with the decisions they were getting wrong over previous years i.e. a goal scoring body part is offside and therefore he should've been flagged offside. That analysis is now changing to whether the laws are workable and I think that discussion needs to happen to see such evolution. But it will happen, sooner or later.

Analysis of play and evolution, two phrases that lead back to what I said previously. Do away with the man in the middle and make all decisions remotely. A bit like driverless cars or pilotless aeroplanes, people won't like it, but it could work, and at least you would know who was pulling the strings!

Might have to have a new song though "whose that w@nker in the VAR studio"...