Politically, are you left or right wing?

[Deleted member 2719]

Didn’t you say also say that older people naturally gravitate towards the Tory party? So surely these “young gullible people” will be brain washed into being Tories? Unless they have very young ,parents of course.

And school tebrainwashin wash kids into being commies? Really? Which lessons does this happen in?

Not sure I ever mentioned a natural gravitation, where was that said?

My parents never talked politics with me, as I don't with my own young children, I do not preach to them about religion either; it's their choice. However, when it comes to football, they know the door will be shown to them for supporting Pompey or Palarse.

Most teachers are socks, and sandals backpackers aren't they?

My kids come home telling me stuff like we need to protest dad, teachers don't get enough holidays and things like that.
They also tend to be incredibly patronising.

Sorry I hope you are not a teacher.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Exhibit A on Rory. Here's what he had to say in early March

Every word bang on the money

[tweet]1238085538957139968[/tweet]

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Not sure I ever mentioned a natural gravitation, where was that said?

My parents never talked politics with me, as I don't with my own young children, I do not preach to them about religion either; it's their choice. However, when it comes to football, they know the door will be shown to them for supporting Pompey or Palarse.

Most teachers are socks, and sandals backpackers aren't they?

My kids come home telling me stuff like we need to protest dad, teachers don't get enough holidays and things like that.
They also tend to be incredibly patronising.

Sorry I hope you are not a teacher.

What other things? And how come it’s only lefty things which get taught? Don’t Tories teach as well?

 

[zefarelly]

Exhibit A on Rory. Here's what he had to say in early March

Every word bang on the money

[tweet]1238085538957139968[/tweet]

I'd never vote for the nasty party as long as I live and breath, but he is the only one of those who stood for leadership who had half a clue what he was going on about a talent wasted in that party.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Exhibit A on Rory. Here's what he had to say in early March

Every word bang on the money

[tweet]1238085538957139968[/tweet]

Yep and here's what the Scientists on SAGE were saying at that time ..

"I would beg to differ on a scientific basis with Mr Stewart"
Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Dr Jenny Harries, tells #BBCBreakfast their advice on how to deal with the #coronavirus in the UK is based in scientific evidence

https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1270792181050195974

As Rory himself pointed out “the Government was absolutely doing I think what the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer were telling them to do”.

After being criticised for their stance on supposedly deriding and ignoring experts re Brexit the government is apparently now being derided and pilloried by exactly the same people for listening to experts. Saying that they are ultimately responsible for the decisions taken.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Exactly. Starmer or whoever would also have followed the same SAGE, if not quite so sage in hindsight, advice.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Exactly. Starmer or whoever would also have followed the same SAGE, if not quite so sage in hindsight, advice.

Virtually every critic of the Gov on NSC would have probably done exactly the same but there you go ..

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Exhibit A on Rory. Here's what he had to say in early March

Every word bang on the money

[tweet]1238085538957139968[/tweet]

You have a few bitter tories out there because they lost out, Hunt and Stewart are the stand out candidates, shame they were not so stand out to become a inspirational leader of the country when it came to the vote.

What other things? And how come it’s only lefty things which get taught? Don’t Tories teach as well?

I think any Tory going into the staff room would probably get maimed by the hyenas on their first day. They have a nose for it.
Union-backed jobs tend also to brainwash the centre ground. It's constant brainwashing.
Block out the noise and make your own judgement call, would be my main advice, as I am sure your keen to know.

 

[*Gullsworth*]

Union-backed jobs tend also to brainwash the centre ground. It's constant brainwashing.
Block out the noise and make your own judgement call, would be my main advice, as I am sure your keen to know.

Mate come out of your brexiteering, right wing bubble and be more forward thinking.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Exactly. Starmer or whoever would also have followed the same SAGE, if not quite so sage in hindsight, advice.

Virtually every critic of the Gov on NSC would have probably done exactly the same but there you go ..

Sorry, but this is all based on half-truths.

You ignore that they select which experts to advise them - amongst many, many dissenting voices.

You ignore that the previously independent SAGE committee had the active presence of Cummings foisted upon them, to the declared disquiet of many

You ignore the about-turn in policy early on

You ignore that the scientific advisers have deliberately distanced themselves from various government announcements

You ignore the newspeak shift from 'Following the science', to 'Listening to the science'

To suggest that everyone now criticising the government, would have made the same decisions is embarrassing, when there are pages and pages and pages of discussion from every step of the process, where many of us have been arguing against the policies of the day. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Machiavelli]

It is interesting to read so many people discussing their reasons for voting the way they do.

Sounds like I am doing it wrong but I now live in a country that has had changes of 'side' over the years. The reality for me is that very little changes for me on a day to day basis. I assume that this is just where I am in my life, with reasonable security if not cash and investment. I sit in the middle of rich and poor and from my vantage point I would like to see wealth more equitably spread throughout society, I would also like to see those that work the hardest and contribute most to society being rewarded more fully. This seems to be agreed upon throughout the thread. I think the only difference is how we define who works hardest and contributes most. My assumption is that there are a whole raft of people who are also going to be okay in spite of who is in charge. So I cast my vote based on who I think will help those most in need of help or based on who will support things that i find important, e.g. Climate Change.

I find it interesting to hear people being so sure that a left sided government in the UK would be a disaster when you haven't seen one since the late 1970's (I am not counting Blair's centre/centre right 90's government). I suppose this outlook will only become more entrenched as time goes on. Only time will tell though.

Yup, good post.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Sorry, but this is all based on half-truths.

You ignore that they select which experts to advise them - amongst many, many dissenting voices.

You ignore that the previously independent SAGE committee had the active presence of Cummings foisted upon them, to the declared disquiet of many

You ignore the about-turn in policy early on

You ignore that the scientific advisers have deliberately distanced themselves from various government announcements

You ignore the newspeak shift from 'Following the science', to 'Listening to the science'

To suggest that everyone now criticising the government, would have made the same decisions is embarrassing, when there are pages and pages and pages of discussion from every step of the process, where many of us have been arguing against the policies of the day. Absolutely ridiculous.

Whatever you say chief.

 

[Machiavelli]

Nobody is denying that it is a tough situation.

It really IS a hard job - no question, at all. My opinion (to be fair, the opinion of a great many people) is that he is doing it very, very badly. And that is when he actually IS doing it, at all.

Right at the critical outset of this catastrophic pandemic - when massive decisions were needed, he completely abdicated responsibility - he disappeared completely from government - either to go on holiday, or to sort out the latest shitshow in his private life.

He missed five straight COBRA meetings - again abdicating responsibility - but also setting the tone, to the nation, that this wasn't really a big deal. If it was, then the PM would be front and centre.

As for, who do I think would have done a BETTER job - honestly, bar Donald Trump, I'm struggling to think of literally anybody at all who is sure to have performed worse. Other Tory options would have done better. Alternative party leaders would have done better. There are many examples around the world of other nations' leaders, who have demonstrated they'd have done better.

In terms of realistic (Tory) options, even the terrible May, would at least have stayed hands-on, and would have taken responsibility. Nor she would have been in the thrall of the dangerous chancer, Cummings.

Hancock has demonstrated some responsibility - he'd have MANAGED the situation better.

Ideally, if it were to be a Tory, then I'd chose the one that got away - Rory Stewart - a guy with real-world experience - used to managing horrible situations. Also more likely than the others, IMO to have achieved cross-party co-operation - something that Johnson has actively avoided (then lied about).

But really - the answer is anybody.

Just to show that I don't agree with every word of this, there is a politician that's f&*^ed up more than Boris and probably more than Trump, and that's Bolsonaro. I'd say that, given this trio, it says all you need to know about right-wing populists, but Orban and to a lesser extent Erdogan haven't produced utter disasters (yet, anyway).

 

[Hampster Gull]

NSCs very own hard right out blindly defending their govt. Too predictable. It’s been handled very poorly, in admittedly trying circumstances. The litmus test is increased deaths over and above historical trend, per capita, vs other countries We are looking very very poor. The govt had a trial run at this a few years ago so the event was not exactly a shock. And some scientists were saying early in this that we were the best placed in the world to deal with a corona virus. Boris has been asked to step up to the plate and has been found wanting. He’s a chancer. Always has been. And I’m no leftie.

 

[amexer]

It is so easy to run the country when in opposition..

 

[Hampster Gull]

It is so easy to run the country when in opposition..

Absolutely. But look at pretty well every other western country on the death measure and we are at the bottom. These countries had leaders from all spectrums

 

[Machiavelli]

I really wouldn’t worry about if people do or not, I think there is a basic equality with all contributions, no doubt some posters who have a long winding contribution baggage train of posts may feel a kind of ownership of threads and a sense of some status amongst the wider contributors but I think most on here see that sadness for what it is.......when the fun stops, stop as they say!

I think in contemporary British society defining political views as left and right has been over used, over simplified and under explained. It is a crude tool to deal with what is inherently personal and complex. My point on it in this thread is to reflect on how the references came about.

I don’t think it necessarily follows that the references are completely insoluble to events, and more importantly The sands of time, however I think it’s a more flexible point of reference than Labour = left and Tory = right. If, for example the more updated references are socialism = left and capitalism = right that still misses nuance and ideological context.

For example, on basis of above how many deeply left minded Corbyn voters, either own their own houses, have mortgages or aspire to own property? How many have more than 1 property and are landlords?

Doesn’t work does it, this new constituency of socialist capitalists that essentially are not what they believe, which makes what they believe in terms of left and right nothing more than a figment of their imagination. For the more muscular neo socialist capitalist, they would use the reference to being left in the same way as someone will say they are a vegan or pansexual. It’s part of their own sense of identity, but means nothing.

Which brings me back to why I think the origins of left and right remain helpful, are you a moderate or a radical. If you understand what needs to change do you do that on a radical basis, (risk polarising the moderates) or a moderate basis (risk polarising the radicals).

BLM like Brexit are radical, both polarising...........if we want radical politics going forward we better get used to the upheaval that comes with it.

You really do have a strange way of looking at the world which, in no small part, follows from what seems a dogmatic commitment to Marxism, and its (at best) questionable claims about social relations and historical understanding. What's worse is that somebody seems to be paying you for producing such views. About the only person I can think of that's daft enough and with access to sufficient money is Len McF*&^INGCluskey.

As to your point about left and right, there's something in it, but there's also a gaping hole. You state that the left want change, but change to what? Can you identify a leftist that is advocating a change to slavery, for instance? And you've cavorted yourself into such a strange position where you're siding with those that are trying to defend the memorialisation of slavers. And as to your other favourite topic, Lexit is an oxymoron, because the vast majority of Brexiters are Rexiters, and they are motivated not by conservatism (conserving what is) but by a reactionary politics, of which Farage is the most articulate exponent.

And all of this explains why you're not cunning, but merely the FergusFairy.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It is so easy to run the country when in opposition..

You see - you've gone a bit wrong, there.

It is actually impossible to 'run the country' in opposition. That isn't their job. Their job is to hold the incumbents to scrutiny, and hope to influence decisions - nothing more.

It is the government's job to run the county. Hopefully, they'll realise that, soon.

 

[stewart12]

It is so easy to run the country when in opposition..

it should also be easy with an 80 seat majority but there you go

 

[Chicken Run]

You see - you've gone a bit wrong, there.

Their job is to hold the incumbents to scrutiny, and hope to influence decisions - nothing more.

Oh, I thought it was 22 year old football player who is more effective at this influencing you talk of...