Pele or Messi ?

[Bold Seagull]

To my mind Pele wasn't the best ever probably much the same as Messi but not the best ever. I would put him behind Maradona and Best possibly Beckenbuar Cryuff

I agree with BensGrandad but would add defining the greatest player is quite difficult, they are all great for a number of reasons.

Ronaldo and Messi are both great, Messi for his trickery and Ronaldo for his athleticism but I wouldn't put one forward as better than the other they are both just different.

Pele won just the 3 world cups out of the 4 finals he played in (granted he was injured for much of '62), scoring 3 goals in the 2 world cup finals he played in, scoring just the 77 goals in just 92 international appearances. He was not yet 18 when he scored a brace in the '58 final. At club level just the 589 goals in 605 appearances.

He lit up crowds, and changed the shape of forward play forever. He was a complete athlete, heading, shooting, dropping into midfield, taking someone on, speed, strength, balance. If you stuck Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff into a human blending machine, the result would be Pele.

 

[User removed 4]

Pele won just the 3 world cups out of the 4 finals he played in (granted he was injured for much of '62), scoring 3 goals in the 2 world cup finals he played in, scoring just the 77 goals in just 92 international appearances. He was not yet 18 when he scored a brace in the '58 final. At club level just the 589 goals in 605 appearances.

He lit up crowds, and changed the shape of forward play forever. He was a complete athlete, heading, shooting, dropping into midfield, taking someone on, speed, strength, balance. If you stuck Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff into a human blending machine, the result would be Pele.

this !!!!

 

[BensGrandad]

You fail to point out that Pele didnt win these world cups himself but was surrounded by probably the best team ever seen on a footbal field. again this is a subjective argument which cannot be proved or disproved.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Hard for me to say, being 30, I never really saw anything of the Pele or Maradona. Messi is genius though, and to do what he does now where there's a lot more emphasis on tactics compared to back in the day. Plus, Messi isn't scoring his goals in Brazil where Pele did a lot of his.

I would have to say:

1. Maradona
2. Messi
3. Pele

Messi failed to shine in the 2010 world cup in what was a very talented Argentinian team. Maradona elevated an average Argentina side to become World Cup winners and World Cup finalists. There is the difference. Messi has to succeed at international level before he can be considered along side the likes of Pele and Maradona.

 

[Aadam]

Pele won just the 3 world cups out of the 4 finals he played in (granted he was injured for much of '62), scoring 3 goals in the 2 world cup finals he played in, scoring just the 77 goals in just 92 international appearances. He was not yet 18 when he scored a brace in the '58 final. At club level just the 589 goals in 605 appearances.

He lit up crowds, and changed the shape of forward play forever. He was a complete athlete, heading, shooting, dropping into midfield, taking someone on, speed, strength, balance. If you stuck Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff into a human blending machine, the result would be Pele.

Aren't much of his goals disputed though. I mean most of them are in the Brazilian leagues, whereas Messi has scored his in the top league in Spain. Pelé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Messi failed to shine in the 2010 world cup in what was a very talented Argentinian team. Maradona elevated an average Argentina side to become World Cup winners and World Cup finalists. There is the difference. Messi has to succeed at international level before he can be considered along side the likes of Pele and Maradona.

I didn't say I couldn't see a difference. But Messi has just scored his 82nd goal this season. That is -- without a doubt -- incredible in today's game. I'm not saying it was easier back in the 70's and 80's but the tactics were not as advanced. Defenders were not as technical and complete as they are at the top level today.

It would be interesting to see how Maradona and Pele would do in the Champions League, or a World Cup in 2014. But unfortunately we will never see that. It's very difficult to compare them all. The standard of football across ALL teams is a lot higher now than back then, IMO.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You fail to point out that Pele didnt win these world cups himself but was surrounded by probably the best team ever seen on a footbal field. again this is a subjective argument which cannot be proved or disproved.

Which is why we're discussing it. I shouldn't really need to point out that football is a team game, as I assume everyone on these boards is aware of that fact. What you should realise is that in 1958, playing a 17 year old in a world cup finals was simply unheard of, he is still the youngest ever player in a final (in which he scored 2 goals) a record that has stood for 54 years.

You are probably also just referring to the 1970 Brazil in regard to the best ever team, the '58 of course were good, but surely that supports Pele's status in that he was 17 and still got in the starting line up.

Not only did he play in a great team in 1970, he was the best player in it. That says everything to me.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

No, but I know that they gave a lesson to the whole team, consequently to label a player revered by a generation of fans as "rubbish" on the basis of watching one game, is plainly ridiculous.

If you compare him to someone in that decade such as Gento, who played for Real Madrid, who had explosive speed, trickery, outstanding goal scoring ability and range of passing, you would be in no doubt how limited a player Matthews was. In the Hungary game, once the opponents sussed how one-footed he was and how he could only ever go outside, it was curtains for him. Really, Matthews wasn't very good, even rubbish, in comparison to players who rightfully have a claim to being the best in the world.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Aren't much of his goals disputed though. I mean most of them are in the Brazilian leagues, whereas Messi has scored his in the top league in Spain. Pelé - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I didn't say I couldn't see a difference. But Messi has just scored his 82nd goal this season. That is -- without a doubt -- incredible in today's game. I'm not saying it was easier back in the 70's and 80's but the tactics were not as advanced. Defenders were not as technical and complete as they are at the top level today.

It would be interesting to see how Maradona and Pele would do in the Champions League, or a World Cup in 2014. But unfortunately we will never see that. It's very difficult to compare them all. The standard of football across ALL teams is a lot higher now than back then, IMO.

Yes, I agree, Pele's club record is tainted I suppose by the fact he stayed at Santos, but lets not devalue other leagues just because they don't have the wealth of the European clubs. Brazil compete in most world cups with the majority of their squad coming from the Brazilian or South American leagues, so you can't say the quality isn't there.

Of course tactics, training and professionalism have all evolved over time, hence these discussions are so interesting. However, Pele had pure natural talent in abundance and an athleticism to back it up. I have no doubts that the likes of Pele, Charlton, Beckenbeuer would have had no trouble in applying themselves in todays game and still being the best players on the pitch.

Messi has been incredible, I'm not denying that, but failing to shine at a world cup finals when he had a very good team around him really puts a question mark over him. He's in a comfort zone at Barca, playing with an exceptional team which totally suits his game. This has yet to transfer to the national team where he has 26 goals in 71 internationals. It's a good record, but not exceptional, and he has failed to shine so far. Time will tell, but the world cup in 2014 is going to be massive for him, I really hope he stays fit.

 

[Marc1901]

I'm too young to be able to see Pele, Maradona etc but Messi is just amazing to watch. For me he is easily the best player I've ever seen and if some people think Ronaldo is better than they are idiots IMO. Messi can produce magic from out of nowhere, just like this the other night against Brazil. I watched the game live and went mad because it was just brilliant.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Messi has been incredible, I'm not denying that, He's in a comfort zone at Barca, playing with an exceptional team which totally suits his game. This has yet to transfer to the national team where he has 26 goals in 71 internationals. It's a good record, but not exceptional, and he has failed to shine so far. .

He seemed to 'shine' quite brightly on Saturday night, when he was scoring a brilliant hat trick against Brazil.

 

[Aadam]

Yes, I agree, Pele's club record is tainted I suppose by the fact he stayed at Santos, but lets not devalue other leagues just because they don't have the wealth of the European clubs. Brazil compete in most world cups with the majority of their squad coming from the Brazilian or South American leagues, so you can't say the quality isn't there.

Of course tactics, training and professionalism have all evolved over time, hence these discussions are so interesting. However, Pele had pure natural talent in abundance and an athleticism to back it up. I have no doubts that the likes of Pele, Charlton, Beckenbeuer would have had no trouble in applying themselves in todays game and still being the best players on the pitch.

Messi has been incredible, I'm not denying that, but failing to shine at a world cup finals when he had a very good team around him really puts a question mark over him. He's in a comfort zone at Barca, playing with an exceptional team which totally suits his game. This has yet to transfer to the national team where he has 26 goals in 71 internationals. It's a good record, but not exceptional, and he has failed to shine so far. Time will tell, but the world cup in 2014 is going to be massive for him, I really hope he stays fit.

I've only seen You Tube clips of him really, and a few programs on past world cups. So happily admit I've not seen enough of Pele to even begin to try and compare him to Messi, or Maradona for that matter.

I think you're right about Messi. For me, he has to try someone else other than Barcelona, a stronger league like Germany or England. Plus, 2014 he has to shine and dare I say win it with Argentina to be considered the greatest.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fzeK3SQa4

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Hahahahaha! Messi just isnt anywhere near the class of Maradona, Pele etc.

Its tough... hate Maradona but he was unbelievable.... Pele was an unbelievable goalscorer..... Cruyff was possibly the flairest player ever and Beckenbauer the most dependable.

Couldnt choose one but Messi would not be on my shortlist.

 

[Bold Seagull]

He seemed to 'shine' quite brightly on Saturday night, when he was scoring a brilliant hat trick against Brazil.

Friendlies are one thing, World Cup finals knock out stage games are another...

 

[User removed 4]

If you compare him to someone in that decade such as Gento, who played for Real Madrid, who had explosive speed, trickery, outstanding goal scoring ability and range of passing, you would be in no doubt how limited a player Matthews was. In the Hungary game, once the opponents sussed how one-footed he was and how he could only ever go outside, it was curtains for him. Really, Matthews wasn't very good, even rubbish, in comparison to players who rightfully have a claim to being the best in the world.

to be frank I'd prefer to listen to people who actually saw him play
and have knowledge of the era , than someone who has used google and watched the odd bit of grainy footage.

 

[Titanic]

Wilf, innit?

 

[Basil Fawlty]

Reading Pele Autobiography, the guy was simply amazing. Untill Messi wins a World Cup, like Maradona and Pele did. Then he will be in this bracket alone, but at the moment he is the greatest Club player ever.

 

[User removed 4]

I've only seen You Tube clips of him really, and a few programs on past world cups. So happily admit I've not seen enough of Pele to even begin to try and compare him to Messi, or Maradona for that matter.

I think you're right about Messi. For me, he has to try someone else other than Barcelona, a stronger league like Germany or England. Plus, 2014 he has to shine and dare I say win it with Argentina to be considered the greatest.

Are the german and english leagues stronger ?? you only have to look at the europa cup finalists , and the way our top two teams were dealt with.

 

[Aadam]

Hahahahaha! Messi just isnt anywhere near the class of Maradona, Pele etc.

Its tough... hate Maradona but he was unbelievable.... Pele was an unbelievable goalscorer..... Cruyff was possibly the flairest player ever and Beckenbauer the most dependable.

Couldnt choose one but Messi would not be on my shortlist.

How much of Messi have you actually seen? A midfielder that scores 82 goals in a single season cannot be ignored or passed off that easily. And lets not forget, the guy is only young, 24 isn't he?

His personal achievements, if you can be bothered to read them. Some are a little suspect, but this is some list, for his age!!

FIFA Ballon d'Or: 2 2010, 2011
Ballon d'Or: 1 2009
FIFA World Player of the Year: 1 2009
World Soccer Player of the Year: 2 2009, 2011
World Soccer Young Player of the Year: 3 2006, 2007, 2008
ESM Team of the Year: 5 2005–06, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11
European Golden Shoe: 2 2010, 2012
La Liga top goalscorer: 2 2010, 2012
Copa del Rey top goalscorer: 1 2011
La Liga Player of the Year: 3 2009, 2010, 2011
LFP Best Player: 3 2009, 2010, 2011
LFP Best Forward: 3 2009, 2010, 2011
La Liga Foreign Player of the Year: 3 2007, 2009, 2010
La Liga Ibero-American Player of the Year: 5 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
UEFA Champions League top goalscorer: 4 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012
UEFA Best Player in Europe Award: 1 2011
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year: 1 2009
UEFA Champions League Forward of the Year: 1 2009
UEFA Champions League Final Man of the Match: 1 2011
UEFA Team of the Year: 4 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Onze d'Or: 3 2009, 2010, 2011
Bravo Award: 1 2007
Tuttosport Golden Boy: 1 2005
FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball: 2 2009, 2011
FIFA U-20 World Cup Player of the Tournament: 1 2005
FIFA U-20 World Cup top goalscorer: 1 2005
Copa América Young Player of the Tournament: 1 2007
FIFPro World Young Player of the Year: 3 2006, 2007, 2008
FIFA/FIFPro World XI: 5 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Sportsperson of the Year of Argentina: 1 2011
Footballer of the Year of Argentina: 6 2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011
Male Best Athlete in Latin America: 1 2011
Marca Leyenda: 1 2009
L'Équipe Champion of Champions: 1 2011
World's Top Goal Scorer of the Year: 1 2011

His records, if you can be bothered to read them.

Most goals scored in a season in all competitions: 73 goals (needs to be updated)
Most goals scored in a single league season: 50 goals
Most goals scored in a single UEFA Champions League season: 14 goals
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks
Most UEFA Champions League hat-tricks: 3 hat-tricks
Only player to score 2 hat-trick in a Champions League season
Highest scorer in a single UEFA Champions League game: 5 goals
Most UEFA Champions League top scorer award: 4 awards
The only player to receive the UEFA Champions League top scorer award 4 years in a row
Most La Liga home goals in a season: 35 goals
Most consecutive league matches scored in: 10 matches
Youngest player to score 150 league goals: 24 years and 270 days
Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 8 goals
Most goals scored in FIFA Club World Cup: 4 goals
Fastest Barcelona hat-trick: completed in 17th minutes
Barcelona Record Goalscorer: 253 goals
Barcelona Record Goalscorer in UEFA Champions League: 51 goals
Barcelona Record Goalscorer in European Competitions: 52 goals
Barcelona Record Goalscorer in international Competitions: 56 goals

And since it's a team sport, what he has won with Barcelona.

La Liga: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11
Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12; Runner-up 2010–11
Supercopa de España: 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League: 2005–06, 2008–09, 2010–11
UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011; Runner-up 2006
FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011

 

[Aadam]

Are the german and english leagues stronger ?? you only have to look at the europa cup finalists , and the way our top two teams were dealt with.

But you have to question the commitment of those teams in that competition. United and City were fighting for the PL, I doubt the Europa Cup was high on their priority list. It's easy to compare teams in Europe, but I think the other leagues are stronger. It's just my opinion.