Panic at the Pumps.

[LamieRobertson]

Two things;
The tories still hold Thatcher up as the champion of causes and the leader they want to emulate.
There are so many people in Britain who will vote for a party who will not represent them in the slightest - unquestioning, because their father did, and he did because his father did.
That said, it's hard to find any party leader who is in any way in touch with the folk they are supposed to represent and what they want to see done (as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair had adequately illustrated).

The trend of blaming drivers and their union, would probably pervade all the 'Sun reader' element. They wouldn't look beyond the headlines when a tanker crashes and causes several deaths, and wonder if the driver was being pushed beyond the limit by people who want as much for their £45,000 p.a. as possible and are prepared to stretch their employees so they don't have to hire more. This, in a time where unemployment (and benefits being paid because of it) is always an issue, and petrol prices are ridiculously high. Squeeze the drivers for every drop of sweat and toil, while members of the public make out they don't have a 'real' profession....but IT people do, and bankers, insurance company execs, and football players and golf pros etc.

I'll never forget when one of my good friends - a brilliant poet and thinker - watching a large crab escaping bucket full of crabs at a fish market in California reflected; "if that was a British crab, the others would reach up and pull him back in".

Sounds like u have taken only one sides view on this ...the drivers...what makes u think what the unions have said is true?...both sides are good at spinning ..somewhere in the middle lays the truth

 

[NMH]

Sounds like u have taken only one sides view on this ...the drivers...what makes u think what the unions have said is true?...both sides are good at spinning ..somewhere in the middle lays the truth

So, if what you surmise is true - how does anyone get to "the middle". If the drivers are not WAY overworked, but only slightly pushed - then how will they get better conditions?
Remember, it's not about money with this one.

Are you suggesting the bosses who set their conditions are slightly hard done by, and could get a fairer deal?
Otherwise, I can't really fathom what you are saying, sorry.

 

[mikeyjh]

by the way of an answer to your question let me make two points.

1) Despite Bob Crow, Len McCluskey and Mark Serwotka being subjected to almost universal vitriol in the mass media, why do they get elected by such clear majorities. The answer is because their members have not the slightest doubt on who's side they stand. That's why their members pay their subs and join their unions. This is not something that can be said for all union leaders. But then how many other union leaders can you name.

2) the chairman of a Public company doesn't think about the wider moral issues for society when they make decisions, they think about the needs of the shareholders. However I may think about capitalism, this is a readily accepted part of the nature of capitalism. Why do you think trade unions should be any different. We may usually have a different political perspective, but we are the mirror image of the bosses.

I work for Unite covering the health service. I have members earning £20000 or less per annum and I have members earning £60,000 and more per annum. Am I supposed to fight less hard for those on 60k just because my natural political leanings and instincts make me more sympathetic for the needs of those on 20k. And if I did what do you think those on 20k would think of me as an officer. Whereas if they know I will fight fiercely for those they know I may personally have less sympathy for, they know I will be at least as strong in their defence. With the attacks and cuts the Health Service is facing, it is a constant battle keeping people from having their pay cut. Therefore the one thing the members I represent must have confidence in, is my determination to defend them. If you were being represented by a trade union rep, would you want any less?

I may offend management at time with my attitude, but when I was getting elected to positions, I never had trouble getting elected.

It may be nice if the world was nice and consensual with everyone caring for each other and compromising on their needs. i would genuinely prefer that. But that isn't how the world is. Its hard, tough, brutal at times and highly competitive. for many of the members we represent we are what stands between them and the worst excesses of this system. In order to best defend them, we have to keep solidarity going and defend all our members.

Well said, keep up the good work - You know what makes it even better is that there isn't one coherent response to what you've said. The problem the anti union mob is they are inherently self serving, interested only in theirs and their own. The idea (to them) of fighting for the less able or less well off is, well, incomprehensible. It's what separates the big middle between who votes tory, and who doesn't.

 

[Digweeds Trousers]

Well said, keep up the good work - You know what makes it even better is that there isn't one coherent response to what you've said. The problem the anti union mob is they are inherently self serving, interested only in theirs and their own. The idea (to them) of fighting for the less able or less well off is, well, incomprehensible. It's what separates the big middle between who votes tory, and who doesn't.

Don't agree - there may not be a coherent response in your opinion but as I said, we are clearly poles apart on the political spectrum so we wont agree. There is, in my opinion a huge difference between investing time and money in ensuring a safer, fairer society is accessible for all, and the rabid anti-capitalism that is rife in the Unions. You demand, you expect, you threaten, you coherse and then claim that you are all here to fight for a fairer world.

No - the unions are here to protect their own leverage and influence in the way that capitalist businesses are run.

We won't agree I realise that , but please try to stop hiding behind this thin veil of moral and altrusitic virtuosity and accept that youa re politically motivated, financially driven and want to override the way that many companies are run.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

So, if what you surmise is true - how does anyone get to "the middle". If the drivers are not WAY overworked, but only slightly pushed - then how will they get better conditions?
Remember, it's not about money with this one.

.

Apart from that it is about the money. There was a Len McLuskey article yesterday about the strike. He talked a lot about health and safety withouth actually going into any specifics about their health and safety issues were. Indeed the only detailed point that he did make was that some drivers had had pay cuts.

 

[Bozza]

Well said, keep up the good work - You know what makes it even better is that there isn't one coherent response to what you've said. The problem the anti union mob is they are inherently self serving, interested only in theirs and their own. The idea (to them) of fighting for the less able or less well off is, well, incomprehensible. It's what separates the big middle between who votes tory, and who doesn't.

Really? You can't see a flaw in an statement that indicates care and sympathy automatically tapers off the more someone earns, without any other factors being considered at all?

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] has to force sympathy and consideration for those higher paid in the health service. Those who, like those on £20k, will be highly skilled individuals attempting to deliver first class care to our nation. He doesn't care for them though because of the size of the numbers on their payslips - he forces himself to show care because he has to. Totally abhorrent.

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] - how much do you earn? Are you in the sub-£20k group who deserve care and sympathy? I imagine you MUST be given your "political leanings and instincts"?

 

[Digweeds Trousers]

Really? You can't see a flaw in an statement that indicates care and sympathy automatically tapers off the more someone earns, without any other factors being considered at all?

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] has to force sympathy and consideration for those higher paid in the health service. Those who, like those on £20k, will be highly skilled individuals attempting to deliver first class care to our nation. He doesn't care for them though because of the size of the numbers on their payslips - he forces himself to show care because he has to. Totally abhorrent.

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] - how much do you earn? Are you in the sub-£20k group who deserve care and sympathy? I imagine you MUST be given your "political leanings and instincts"?

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.

It is the hypocrisy of that load of shite that is so disgusting. The unions are the voice of the people - as long as those people fit precicesly into the bracket that people like Castello sees as being worthwhile.

Its clear that he must be on less than £20k as anyone earning sifngifcantly more than that is a disgusting worthless individual perpetuating poverty and misery on those that earn less.

f***ing appalling attitiude.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well said, keep up the good work - You know what makes it even better is that there isn't one coherent response to what you've said. The problem the anti union mob is they are inherently self serving, interested only in theirs and their own. The idea (to them) of fighting for the less able or less well off is, well, incomprehensible. It's what separates the big middle between who votes tory, and who doesn't.

Let's not also forget the jealousy of a lot of the anti-union mob as well. Jealousy that they're not being looked after. Jealousy that their terms and conditions are being gradually eroded. Jealousy that they're being walked over. Sniping born out of jealousy is a horrible trait.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] - how much do you earn? Are you in the sub-£20k group who deserve care and sympathy? I imagine you MUST be given your "political leanings and instincts"?

Are you suggesting that it is hypocritical to earn a decent wage and have left political leanings and instincts?

 

[British Bulldog]

Personally I feel that the day the Unions and the whole culture of entitlement are crushed and removed from society the better.

It will be a sad day if ever that happens.

 

[beorhthelm]

...
The trend of blaming drivers and their union, would probably pervade all the 'Sun reader' element. They wouldn't look beyond the headlines when a tanker crashes and causes several deaths, and wonder if the driver was being pushed beyond the limit by people who want as much for their £45,000 p.a. as possible and are prepared to stretch their employees so they don't have to hire more. This, in a time where unemployment (and benefits being paid because of it) is always an issue, and petrol prices are ridiculously high. Squeeze the drivers for every drop of sweat and toil,

something that keeps getting over looked is lorry drivers are one of the most regulated jobs around, limited to 50 odd hours driving. I read somewhere that the tanker drivers have contracted hours of 37 a week - a lot less than your typical lorry driver. if you read the Unite case, its about pensions being fragmented due to changing contracts (oh woe) and wanting additional training (just how much training can there be on filling and emptying a tank?). this isnt about nasty robber barons trying to squeeze their workers, its about the union wanting to make a cause. why didnt they go to ACAS first, then ballot on action, instead of the other way round?

 

[Castello]

Really? You can't see a flaw in an statement that indicates care and sympathy automatically tapers off the more someone earns, without any other factors being considered at all?

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] has to force sympathy and consideration for those higher paid in the health service. Those who, like those on £20k, will be highly skilled individuals attempting to deliver first class care to our nation. He doesn't care for them though because of the size of the numbers on their payslips - he forces himself to show care because he has to. Totally abhorrent.

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] - how much do you earn? Are you in the sub-£20k group who deserve care and sympathy? I imagine you MUST be given your "political leanings and instincts"?

Firstly to Bozza, Digweeds Trousers and all the other anti union tories on here, I am well aware of your opinions of me and my fellow trade unionists. I would be concerned with how well I was doing if I didnt cause you such offence. You will however notice that I dont personalise my attacks upon you as individuals. It is the system I oppose not individuals.

I do notice many who share your point of view have trouble with that concept. Probably as has been said because you don't have a coherent argument against the benefits of collectivism other than " I am an individual and I only care about me and mine." You have a right to that view. It is in my opinion why our society is in such an uncaring mess. People are to busy worrying about themselves to worry about those less well off.

I do not have to force myself to care for those I represent. I find it quite easy to understand why someone would want to maximise their earnings and work in a safe and healthy environment. I also see a bigger pictiure of how we need to defend all who need it.

The members I represent know how much I earn, usually because I tell them. I wont tell you because you merely wish to use it to attack what I do. However when you consider how many hours I work to do all the tasks within my role, and still dont manage, you can rest assured that the hourly rate is in line with an average of the hourly rate of those I represent. I am within the lower rate of tax band, For the record I do believe I am well paid but work hard for what I earn. However I have in the past and quite likely will do in future, do what I do for no other reason than commitment to a set of beliefs. I think we both know I don't do this for the money. I think it is a cheap shot that only demeans your arguments when you try to attack my wages.

 

[Bozza]

Are you suggesting that it is hypocritical to earn a decent wage and have left political leanings and instincts?

Not all, no, and you jolly well know that you tinker.

I do, however, think it's highly hypocritical to preach about collectivism and then confess that, based purely on a number printed on a monthly payslip, you don't actually care. No other factors are considered. None. Highly skilled healthcare professionals receive the pretence of care and sympathy because they are (un)fortunate enough to earn more than others. I really do think it's quite appalling as well as incredibly revealing.

 

[Bozza]

Firstly to Bozza, Digweeds Trousers and all the other anti union tories on here, I am well aware of your opinions of me and my fellow trade unionists. I would be concerned with how well I was doing if I didnt cause you such offence. You will however notice that I dont personalise my attacks upon you as individuals. It is the system I oppose not individuals.

I do notice many who share your point of view have trouble with that concept. Probably as has been said because you don't have a coherent argument against the benefits of collectivism other than " I am an individual and I only care about me and mine." You have a right to that view. It is in my opinion why our society is in such an uncaring mess. People are to busy worrying about themselves to worry about those less well off.

I do not have to force myself to care for those I represent. I find it quite easy to understand why someone would want to maximise their earnings and work in a safe and healthy environment. I also see a bigger pictiure of how we need to defend all who need it.

The members I represent know how much I earn, usually because I tell them. I wont tell you because you merely wish to use it to attack what I do. However when you consider how many hours I work to do all the tasks within my role, and still dont manage, you can rest assured that the hourly rate is in line with an average of the hourly rate of those I represent. I am within the lower rate of tax band, For the record I do believe I am well paid but work hard for what I earn. However I have in the past and quite likely will do in future, do what I do for no other reason than commitment to a set of beliefs. I think we both know I don't do this for the money. I think it is a cheap shot that only demeans your arguments when you try to attack my wages.

Your embarrassment is noted, thanks.

 

[mikeyjh]

Really? You can't see a flaw in an statement that indicates care and sympathy automatically tapers off the more someone earns, without any other factors being considered at all?

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] has to force sympathy and consideration for those higher paid in the health service. Those who, like those on £20k, will be highly skilled individuals attempting to deliver first class care to our nation. He doesn't care for them though because of the size of the numbers on their payslips - he forces himself to show care because he has to. Totally abhorrent.

[MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION] - how much do you earn? Are you in the sub-£20k group who deserve care and sympathy? I imagine you MUST be given your "political leanings and instincts"?

You and DT are kind of proving my point though - You are finding it very difficult to believe that anyone (especially one who earns a reasonable salary) could do anything without the aim of personal financial gain. We don't all act and or vote always in our's and our family's best interests, sometimes, some people are in it to help those more in need.

I can see that you're in it for yourself and your family - Can you see that others may see it differently?

 

[mikeyjh]

Let's not also forget the jealousy of a lot of the anti-union mob as well. Jealousy that they're not being looked after. Jealousy that their terms and conditions are being gradually eroded. Jealousy that they're being walked over. Sniping born out of jealousy is a horrible trait.

It's a bizarre politic of envy - I'm being shafted up the arse and can't fight it, so why shouldn't they?

 

[Bozza]

You and DT are kind of proving my point though - You are finding it very difficult to believe that anyone (especially one who earns a reasonable salary) could do anything without the aim of personal financial gain. We don't all act and or vote always in our's and our family's best interests, sometimes, some people are in it to help those more in need.

I can see that you're in it for yourself and your family - Can you see that others may see it differently?

I've presented very little of my beliefs on here. I'd like to think that the thousands of unpaid hours I've spent running and maintaining NSC should give a fair indication of my sense of community.

The fact that I see massive hypocrisy in the approach of some of the union contingent says nothing for how I lead my life.

In summary: a very poor and cheap shot. Is it the best you've got?

 

[Albumen]

 

[Albumen]

True. I also have a theory that some people vote conservative as part of the package of being "successful". I've seen many a person follow the dull upward trajectory of university, management job, pretty obedient wife, mondeo, kids, people carrier, crappy new build in the suburbs with a drive way etc. I'm sure they vote Tory because it's what they think they're supposed to do just like the cliched path they have followed elsewhere in their life.

To be honest I have no idea why people vote Tory, a party that represents everything that's bad in humanity. But still they get into power (albeit by the back route), so that doesnt say much for England in my eyes.

 

[NMH]

Apart from that it is about the money. There was a Len McLuskey article yesterday about the strike. He talked a lot about health and safety withouth actually going into any specifics about their health and safety issues were. Indeed the only detailed point that he did make was that some drivers had had pay cuts.

Oh. So they are asking for more money then.
Who said it was about conditions?!!

Maybe this article is totally misguided?;
All striking tanker drivers want is responsible minimum standards | Len McCluskey | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

This one appears to mention conditions;
BBC News - Fuel strike drivers vote yes in row over conditions

I'm not seeing anything about them wanting more money. Please point that out for me.