[TV] O/T Beginning of Afghanistan War

[TomandJerry]

Afghanistan’s main TV channels are still broadcasting, but with some noticeable differences - including the disappearance of all female presenters from the screen.

There has been a large increase in favourable comments on the Taliban on channels such as the state-run National Afghanistan TV and privately owned Tolo News, Ariana, Shamshad and 1TV.



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[CheeseRolls]

Conventional wisdom was that the Taliban could not be defeated, because they were essentially a loose federation of warlords, with no effective leadership or command structure. It doesn't exactly look that way right now does it?

 

[Billy the Fish]

I could get along with the argument of not creating a puppet state if it's made before you create the puppet state. Creating a puppet state and running it for over a decade and then deciding you can't be bothered anymore is a different proposition. It wasn't like they had a huge military presence there for the last few years.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

On R5 now, live.

I can't really argue with him. What is to be gained by creating a puppet state, gifted equipment, training and a bespoke political system, who when left to defend their country against the zealots simply run away?

I assume this now formally ends the idea of America as the 'world policeman'. Removing heads of state for being hostile to America (the conceit). A policeman with as much idea as the nobs who fitted up the Birmingham six, and hob nobbed with Kenneth Noye. World policeman....my arse.

China, with little concern for human rights abuses (Afghani women in this case) has already stepped in.

Damned if you do, but I see that Biden has little choice. 'Not in our national security interest; not what our troops deserve'.

A pity they didn't realise the same after Korea. And Vietnam. Flat track bullies......

The alt right are already after Biden, albeit Trump planned the withdrawal to have happened back in May.

For me, it’s not the withdrawal…but the way the withdrawal was conducted….which was utterly pathetic. Shame on the US and UK government and their armed forces. Is this really the best they could do?

 

[peterward]

Conventional wisdom was that the Taliban could not be defeated, because they were essentially a loose federation of warlords, with no effective leadership or command structure. It doesn't exactly look that way right now does it?

This article in the guardian is far more accurate than Bidens waffle or Trumps calamitous mistake.

As the article suggests.......The Taliban were never going to honour the agreements signed, they simply strung the peace talks along whilst actually planning for this military offensive.

I will never personally listen to a single word that Biden may say about human suffering or human rights, when he has abandoned millions of fellow human beings (as thats what they are) to a frightening, medieval and murderous regime, and Millions of innocent woman have just effectively just had any chance of hope or education stolen from them.

I'm not buying his BS, he and the US could easily have transferred the responsibility onto NATO and waited until a settlement was agreed by the Afghan govt with all parties, even if that meant another year or two.

This is a dereliction of duty and responsibility, there is no justification to just cut and run.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/16/the-guardian-view-on-afghanistan-unnecessary-suffering

 

[Baker lite]

This article in the guardian is far more accurate than Bidens waffle or Trumps calamitous mistake.

As the article suggests.......The Taliban were never going to honour the agreements signed, they simply strung the peace talks along whilst actually planning for this military offensive.

I will never personally listen to a single word that Biden may say about human suffering or human rights, when he has abandoned millions of fellow human beings (as thats what they are) to a frightening, medieval and murderous regime, and Millions of innocent woman have just effectively just had any chance of hope or education stolen from them.

I'm not buying his BS, he and the US could easily have transferred the responsibility onto NATO and waited until a settlement was agreed by the Afghan govt with all parties, even if that meant another year or two.

This is a dereliction of duty and responsibility, there is no justification to just cut and run.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/16/the-guardian-view-on-afghanistan-unnecessary-suffering

This.

 

[peterward]

You can point fingers at Biden or whoever if you like but it's probably better to rely on facts. Trump and Pompeo signed the deal in Doha in 2020 that released 5,000 Taliban fighters from prison and committed all US forces to leave Afghanistan by Spring 2021. That was the start of this resurgence of the Taliban, you will not find many sources that would disagree with that. Post the start of the American pull out, many Afghan soldiers were not being paid, many units were not receiving supplies and ammunition.

You can see how morale disintegrated from there and how so many Afghan soldiers were deserting, selling weapons to the Taliban or even joining them. It's not entirely Trump's fault, nor Obama's, certainly not Biden's but the USA's complete failure and ultimate humiliation is there for all to see.

And Trump did it all, not in the interests of American security or the Afghan people, he did for the single reason of having some form of perceived foreign policy victory he could try and use for his re election.

He didnt give a to$$ about the consequences

 

[Pavilionaire]

What is hard to understand is how the people of Afghanistan didn't defend the freedoms they were given, or put pressure on the government to reduce the Taliban threat. It's almost like there is a cultural acceptance that male military might is the only way to govern.

The Taliban killed and repressed so many Afghans over so many years that it is incredible to me they have returned with relative ease.

The whole of the Middle East is a complete mess, from Syria and Lebanon in the West, Iraq, Iran and now Afghanistan.

 

[beorhthelm]

For me, it’s not the withdrawal…but the way the withdrawal was conducted….which was utterly pathetic. Shame on the US and UK government and their armed forces. Is this really the best they could do?

they assumed the Afgan forces and government would hang around. years of training, setting up not just front line but logistics and support. should we just stay on forever?

 

[jackanada]

Pretty much exactly what most of those who opposed this war predicted would happen.
Very few got the timescale right mind. I thought this would have happened 12 years ago.
Where next for the military industrial gravy train?

 

[crodonilson]

Biden carrying the can for a 20 year war with an agreement signed by Trump for all US troops to be withdrawn, having only been in office 6 months seems a little trite, if not outright populism.

The buck stops with Sleepy Joe, he's the only one who can make decisions currently and has done so since January. Others need to take their share of the blame for past failings but only Sleepy Joe can do anything about current events.

 

[jackanada]

they assumed the Afgan forces and government would hang around. years of training, setting up not just front line but logistics and support. are you suggesting we should just stay on forever?

Well maybe that we organized the evacuation of all the soon to be dead people that helped before we removed most of the troops.
Admittedly some of them got out earlier. I met a lady who seeing this coming fled last year. Obviously Priti Patel has tried to deport her but having been a paralegal secretary for the un mission she'd made enough useful friends to see that off.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

they assumed the Afgan forces and government would hang around. years of training, setting up not just front line but logistics and support. are you suggesting we should just stay on forever?

No. I thought it was clear from my post my issue is with the manner of the withdrawal.

 

[Machiavelli]

Only? Estimates of the value of the worldwide heroin market range from $50 billion to $100 billion. It's dwarfed by the oil industry but then's opium farmers are not spending billions on extracting and transporting the goods. Heroin and cocaine are arguably the most profitable markets in the world right now. And it's an activity that provides the Taliban with much of its funding.

If you look at the post I was responding to, my quibble was with the claim that the US invaded Afghanistan to extract financial gain. The US didn't go into Afghanistan to exert control over its opium.
In short, I agree with what you're saying, but it's got nothing to do with what I was saying.

 

[peterward]

Pretty much exactly what most of those who opposed this war predicted would happen.
Very few got the timescale right mind. I thought this would have happened 12 years ago.
Where next for the military industrial gravy train?

The next Iraq, Syria, Libya or Afghanistan..... The US will be totally on their own. Its Peter and the Wolf stuff, what local or local orgnisation is going to work or support a country who will just look after their own interests then just cut and run?

In fact, there's nothing to stop the Talibn repoening the terrorist camps, the US wouldnt go back and the locals wouldnt trust them again.

 

[Swansman]

A pity they didn't realise the same after Korea. And Vietnam. Flat track bullies......

And Iran. And Guatemala. And British Guiana. And Iraq. And Cambodia. And Laos. And Ecuador. And Congo. And Brazil. And Dominican Republic. And Bolivia. And Indonesia. And Ghana. And Chile. And Australia. And Portugal. And Jamaica. And Chad. And Grenada. And Fiji. And Nicaragua. And Panama. And Bulgaria. And Albania. And Yugoslavia. And Venezuela. And Haiti. And Somalia. And Honduras. And Libya.

All of these countries have had their governments overthrown by the United States since the second World War. Most often these countries turned into chaos. Almost as if it was the intention all along...

What is hard to understand is how the people of Afghanistan didn't defend the freedoms they were given, or put pressure on the government to reduce the Taliban threat. It's almost like there is a cultural acceptance that male military might is the only way to govern.

The Taliban killed and repressed so many Afghans over so many years that it is incredible to me they have returned with relative ease.

The whole of the Middle East is a complete mess, from Syria and Lebanon in the West, Iraq, Iran and now Afghanistan.

Because people dont want US appointed warlords as their government. The Western idea that a Western appointed government is any better is a purely Western idea.

I'm sure the people of Kabul preferred the yank appointed government, less sure others did, hence no resistance and plenty of people joining the Taliban forces.

 

[raymondo]

Well maybe that we organized the evacuation of all the soon to be dead people that helped before we removed most of the troops.
Admittedly some of them got out earlier. I met a lady who seeing this coming fled last year. Obviously Priti Patel has tried to deport her but having been a paralegal secretary for the un mission she'd made enough useful friends to see that off.

Exactly this... shameful that we didn't start the visa processing of our Afghan friends and helpers far earlier, and should have increased staff to ensure it was done.

 

[Machiavelli]

I was simplifying things a little tbh. But do check out what companies rebuilt Iraq after the invasion, pretty intetesting stuff.

I'm fully aware of the contracts the likes of Halliburton won soon after the disastrous decision to invade Iraq. I spent a long time going on demos at the time. The UK and the US over-extended themselves badly and went in without a UN resolution, unlike with Afghanistan. The adventurism in Iraq meant they took their eye off the ball in Afghanistan. That decision has had severe repercussions on both Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Pavilionaire]

And Iran. And Guatemala. And British Guiana. And Iraq. And Cambodia. And Laos. And Ecuador. And Congo. And Brazil. And Dominican Republic. And Bolivia. And Indonesia. And Ghana. And Chile. And Australia. And Portugal. And Jamaica. And Chad. And Grenada. And Fiji. And Nicaragua. And Panama. And Bulgaria. And Albania. And Yugoslavia. And Venezuela. And Haiti. And Somalia. And Honduras. And Libya.

All of these countries have had their governments overthrown by the United States since the second World War. Most often these countries turned into chaos. Almost as if it was the intention all along...



Because people dont want US appointed warlords as their government. The Western idea that a Western appointed government is any better is a purely Western idea.

I'm sure the people of Kabul preferred the yank appointed government, less sure others did, hence no resistance and plenty of people joining the Taliban forces.

I didn't see thousands fleeing the capital in terror when NATO forces were keeping the peace, not to mention the horrifying sight of young men trying to stow away on the outside of departing planes.

 

[beorhthelm]

No. I thought it was clear from my post my issue is with the manner of the withdrawal.

but the manner of the withdrawal is because the Afgan's gave up. thats why i ask the question, as only way this could have been different is by not leaving.