[TV] O/T Beginning of Afghanistan War

[Ike and Tina Burner]

The real question is why was the withdrawal not better planned out. Why are there still so many people who need to be flown out at this late stage. Why were there no plans for dealing with the vast hordes of panicking civilians descending onto the airport. Presumably the speed of collapse by the ANA has taken everybody in charge by surprise but I'm sure it was long forseen by those on the ground.

 

[beorhthelm]

"We are going to pull out, we have had plenty of notice, but before we do we had better get those that helped us the hell out of there, or they are going to be in a lot of trouble"
It doesn't sound too difficult to me, if any of those Afghans that helped the military are left behind to face the consequences, it will be despicable, you cannot trust The Taliban to carry out their promises, especially against women.

were due to pull out next month, they not unreasonably expected some resistance from the Afgan forces in at least keeping Taliban in check for a few weeks. they didnt even capitulate, simply handed over cities, regions and the country.

 

[peterward]

Sorry, but much as I like the change in direction that has come from Biden’s victory I am not going to support this debacle. Biden certainly did have a choice. Too easy to blame the media. Biden is not immune from criticism and gets exactly the same flak from me as Trump would have done if still in charge.

Here here, the 2 are not mutually exclusive. For one Biden is not Trump. A dead Cat would be better than trump, and he's done a lot right with the Covid response and rejoining Paris accord and taking seriously the climate emergency.

But this is an utter disaster of epic proportions and as I read quoted from Obamas former defence sec this morning (paraphrased) "Biden is a man of huge intergrity but on foreign policy just about every decision he has made has turned out to be wrong in hindsight"

Biden just a couple of days ago said the was virtually no chance the Taliban would sweep the nation, they have. he also said directly to questions referencing Saigon that helicopters evacutaing US personnel from the Embassy (as they did in Saigon) "would simply never happen" {in afghanistan]. yesterday Chinooks were evacuating US personnel from the roof of the US embassy.

Biden has ballsed this all up big time

 

[Baker lite]

185,000 Afghan military, trained, armed and equipped by the west, pretty much immediately down weapons in the face of 85,000 Taliban. These were the numbers quoted in the Sunday Times at the weekend.

20 years of huge investment and tragic loss. All for nothing.

Seems they may have been trained exclusively by the French…

 

[Pavilionaire]

The facts: On February 29, 2020, the US and the Taliban signed a peace agreement titled the Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan, with provisions including the withdrawal of all regular American and NATO troops from Afghanistan, a Taliban pledge to prevent al-Qaeda from operating in areas under Taliban control, and talks between the Taliban and the government of the then Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. The deal was supported by China, Pakistan, and Russia, and unanimously endorsed by the United Nations Security Council.

The Trump administration agreed to an initial reduction from 13,000 to 8,600 troops by July 2020, followed by a full withdrawal by May 1, 2021 if the Taliban kept its commitments. The Biden administration, however, said the US would not begin withdrawing until May 1 and would complete the withdrawal before September 11.

Therefore, under Trump, the US would have pulled out even earlier.

I am not saying Biden has managed this situation well, but successive US presidents appear to have been badly advised as to the scale and speed of the Taliban threat. Indeed, the UK don't appear to have evacuated in a timely fashion either and you would not want to be a Brit - or Afghan national that had worked for the UK government - left behind today.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Here here, the 2 are not mutually exclusive. For one Biden is not Trump. A dead Cat would be better than trump, and he's done a lot right with the Covid response and rejoining Paris accord and taking seriously the climate emergency.

But this is an utter disaster of epic proportions and as I read quoted from Obamas former defence sec this morning (paraphrased) "Biden is a man of huge intergrity but on foreign policy just about every decision he has made has turned out to be wrong in hindsight"

Biden just a couple of days ago said the was virtually no chance the Taliban would sweep the nation, they have. he also said directly to questions referencing Saigon that helicopters evacutaing US personnel from the Embassy (as they did in Saigon) "would simply never happen" {in afghanistan]. yesterday Chinooks were evacuating US personnel from the roof of the US embassy.

Biden has ballsed this all up big time

I've highlighted the key word in this passage

 

[peterward]

I've highlighted the key word in this passage

Like I wrote, I was paraphrasing broadly what Id read...as I didnt have the exact qoute to hand. the word hindsight was not used. This is the exact quote from Robert Gates, former Obama defence sec

“Mr. Biden was a man of genuine integrity and character. but he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades."

 

[jackalbion]

The real question is why was the withdrawal not better planned out. Why are there still so many people who need to be flown out at this late stage. Why were there no plans for dealing with the vast hordes of panicking civilians descending onto the airport. Presumably the speed of collapse by the ANA has taken everybody in charge by surprise but I'm sure it was long forseen by those on the ground.

The US predicted it would take 30 days, I don't think anyone was ready for the way the Afghan forced was steam rollered.

 

[Easy 10]

The US predicted it would take 30 days, I don't think anyone was ready for the way the Afghan forced was steam rollered.

They weren't even steamrollered. They simply gave up. I'd wager a large proportion of them were happy to lay down their arms in the prospect of the return of a harshly imposed sharia law, so they could return to their position of superiority and domination over women along with scooping up 3 or 4 pre-teenage wives.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The US predicted it would take 30 days, I don't think anyone was ready for the way the Afghan forced was steam rollered.

The capitulation reminds me of the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketch 'Squatter and the Ant'.

 

[albionalbino]

Just came across this documentary on you tube. I thought it was a great watch, and people on here may be intresteded in viewing.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZyCzagB_ew

An excellent recounting of a horrific battle.

 

[beorhthelm]

Like I wrote, I was paraphrasing broadly what Id read...as I didnt have the exact qoute to hand. the word hindsight was not used. This is the exact quote from Robert Gates, former Obama defence sec

“Mr. Biden was a man of genuine integrity and character. but he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades."

given the policy to withdraw was advocated by both Obama and Trump, think that tells more about the former defense secretary. Biden just ended up with the shitty stick.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Like I wrote, I was paraphrasing broadly what Id read...as I didnt have the exact qoute to hand. the word hindsight was not used. This is the exact quote from Robert Gates, former Obama defence sec

“Mr. Biden was a man of genuine integrity and character. but he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades."

To be fair most American politicians have been wrong on foreign policy for the last 100 years so why should Biden be any different.

In 1920's they considered the British Empire as their greatest thread. In 1930s they went for Isolation , in 1940 they were forced into the war by Japan attacking (and some skillful diplomacy by Churchill) , 1950-1990s it was all about the cold war and fighting proxy wars often choosing sides who were either morally bankrupt or inept or often both. Korea possibly being the exception and that was a UN backed engagement. 1990s left them as the world's only super power so they fiddled around between policeman (Somalia) and asset grabber (Iraq 2) and generally playing god with other countries. Iraq 1 was again a UN backed attack against a genuine aggressor.

In the meantime while they have dallied around in the middle east , the Russians have come back as a major power and China has emerged as a true superpower with both the military and economy to play a major part, it's power grab in the South China seas threatens the whole area.

 

[Baldseagull]

Not sure that's one hundred percent accurate. Many were definitely recruited from the Mujahideen, but it isn;t the same people en mass.

Good, short summary of the recent history here for anyone interested - https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/taliban-key-facts-islamic-militant-group-2021-08-15/

Yes, it was a short post about a complex situation and on re reading what I posted I made it sound as if they were all one and the same, what I was trying to say was that the strict form of Islam was supported and fostered by the west when it suited us, and the Taliban were born of the Mujahideen foreign fighters, and the madrassas they set up with our blessing.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm not saying he should be immune, but what was the choice he had, baring in mind all the agreements / withdrawal treaties signed to date. Like I said, I haven't read a convincing case of what this 'certainly did have a choice' is?

There is a headline on BBC news that has the American envoy saying that America is on hand to assist the Afghan people. So if that means anything then there is something they can do.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes, it was a short post about a complex situation and on re reading what I posted I made it sound as if they were all one and the same, what I was trying to say was that the strict form of Islam was supported and fostered by the west when it suited us, and the Taliban were born of the Mujahideen foreign fighters, and the madrassas they set up with our blessing.

A Kabul resident just interviewed on the BBC said the Taliban going house to house at the moment are foreigners. They are looking for women with jobs and an education. These are young men, not Mujhadeen fighters from the ‘80s. Policy makers are going to have to deal with the current Taliban threat not relive one from the past.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

There is a headline on BBC news that has the American envoy saying that America is on hand to assist the Afghan people. So if that means anything then there is something they can do.

I think we're getting into Rumsfeld territory here...

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.

 

[BLOCK F]

The only reason that historically (and I'm talking 1800's or so) we got involved was to stop the Russians coming down to nobble the Jewel in the Imperial Crown.

Personally I would let the Taliban get on with their wish to go back to the good old Medieval Times.

My Great Great Grandfather fought in the first Afghan War and despite suffering a grapeshot wound to his thigh, survived the war. I’ve got his medals here at home, dated 1842.

 

[AmexRuislip]

[tweet]1427169480950657027[/tweet]

 

[Easy 10]

Very distressing reports of Afghan women in Kabul now rushing round to buy burkhas. Also those who have studied and gained diplomas and 'western' qualifications, who have worked as teachers, who had jobs and careers and a life mapped out, are now having to hide all their hard-earned achievements and qualifications as they prepare to go back to life in the Stone Age under the oppression of these islamist nutters.