NSC's EU Vote

[Dandyman]

51st state of America anyone?

Which is of course what the likes of UKIP are really about. The chief right-wing objection to the EU is the European social model rather than any loss of sovereign powers, which they are quiet happy to see over-ridden by international finance and transnational companies.

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

f*** 'em, we're shagging the Yanks anyway.

 

[Dandyman]

This is a bit long to paste but worth a read:

Europe

Any comments ?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

51st state of America anyone?

Which unfortunately is the most deluded part of the anti-Europe brigade's argument. The "Special Relationship" is over (as far as it ever existed anyway). The way the world is now, Britain is no use to the USA. This country is now just another country as far as the US are concerned, maybe with a bit of trendy culture that the yanks are into and vice versa, but that's as far as it goes.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This is a bit long to paste but worth a read:

Europe

Any comments ?

Wow - that's one hell of a document. Even as a complete Eurosceptic I'd be much happier for an EU along those lines than the one we have today. What they are effectively suggesting is starting again - I'm not sure how realistic that aim is.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Which unfortunately is the most deluded part of the anti-Europe brigade's argument. The "Special Relationship" is over (as far as it ever existed anyway). The way the world is now, Britain is no use to the USA. This country is now just another country as far as the US are concerned, maybe with a bit of trendy culture that the yanks are into and vice versa, but that's as far as it goes.

Er, as an anti-Europe person ( anti-EU actually and that's a differentiation that lot's of people seem to miss ), I no more want to be the 51st member state of the USA than I do a state in the United States of Europe. Nor do I see this idea of the 51st state pushed by any anti-EU brigade. It's just some made up argument by pro-EU people.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Er, as an anti-Europe person ( anti-EU actually and that's a differentiation that lot's of people seem to miss ), I no more want to be the 51st member state of the USA than I do a state in the United States of Europe. Nor do I see this idea of the 51st state pushed by any anti-EU brigade. It's just some made up argument by pro-EU people.

It's perhaps a sweeping generalisation that that is the view of ALL Euro-Sceptics, but its certainly common amongst UKIP's ideas; a closer relationship with the US. But it is kinda implicit isn't it - if you want to move away from Europe then you either move towards another superpower alignment (not gonna be China or Russia), or the UK drastically changes its position and influence in the world. And as another generalisation I will make is that a lot of anti-Europe people are also incredibly jingoistic and want a strong, influential Britain, the latter seems unlikely.

 

[c0lz]

I can't believe someone actually posted that! 'Human rights, we survived decades without them and we should do again'.

we survived decades without them and we should do again'

Was ref's to the E.U

 

[beorhthelm]

This is a bit long to paste but worth a read:

Europe

Any comments ?

interestingly they are anti-EU, anti-Euro and anti-european court. i always had them down as strongly pro-europe.

 

[sir albion]

THE EU was always going to fail for many reasons,i get the feeling it was set up to help the poorer countries but even that has backfired big time.

Must get out before our resources are drained even more

 

[Dandyman]

Wow - that's one hell of a document. Even as a complete Eurosceptic I'd be much happier for an EU along those lines than the one we have today. What they are effectively suggesting is starting again - I'm not sure how realistic that aim is.

Without buying into everything that the Greens come out with, I do think there is sense in an approach of critical engagement. Being in favour of a free association of democratic nations does not mean accepting the corruption and other negative aspects of the current arrangements.

 

[Dandyman]

interestingly they are anti-EU, anti-Euro and anti-european court. i always had them down as strongly pro-europe.

I think it is more nuanced than that. For example:

EU340 The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has wide ranging powers and is currently accepted by the UK courts as a superior court. The ECJ should be given a statute which defines and limits its powers, preferably as part of a European Treaty (see EU350-6).
EU341 The Green Party believes the primacy of political decision making must be maintained. The role of the ECJ should be to apply the democratic decisions of political representatives and citizens. It should not go beyond necessary interpretation into making its own legislation. The ECJ should no longer be allowed to promote European integration in its judgements where that is not specified in the statutes it is interpreting.
EU342 The role of the ECJ should extend as appropriate within the competencies of the EU listed in EU200-221. Care should be taken not to duplicate the roles of existing courts in member countries.
EU343 The ECJ should have a particular power throughout the operations of the bodies of the EU to require them to meet agreed standards of openness and accessibility (see EU380-4).
EU344 Within these principles, arrangements need to be made to ensure that justice is available more expeditiously to litigants.
EU345 It should be possible for an individual to initiate a direct appeal on a point of law. The ECJ should have a "gatekeeper" to decide which cases merit being put before it. The criterion should be whether there is a valid case under EU law.

 

[Brovion]

This is a bit long to paste but worth a read:

Europe

Any comments ?

Very interesting read. I don't agree with all of it but there are certain sections that are bang on the money. There's a lot of the old Ecology Party thinking in there, the 'small is beautiful' philosophy.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think it is more nuanced than that. For example:

i'll admit i didnt travel as far as point 345. Theres nothing nuanced about "seek to replace the unsustainable economics of free trade and growth", "[the original goal of the EC] has been distorted by vested political and economic interests into a union dominated by economic interests, which lacks democratic control", "Europe must not become a super-state or global power bloc" or "The present EU structures are fundamentally flawed. Their remoteness has resulted in a lack of accountability which is working against the interests of people and the environment.".

As Westdene put it, thats solid eurosceptic ground. if only the greens werent so, well, green in their politics.

 

[Brovion]

i'll admit i didnt travel as far as point 345. Theres nothing nuanced about "seek to replace the unsustainable economics of free trade and growth", "[the original goal of the EC] has been distorted by vested political and economic interests into a union dominated by economic interests, which lacks democratic control", "Europe must not become a super-state or global power bloc" or "The present EU structures are fundamentally flawed. Their remoteness has resulted in a lack of accountability which is working against the interests of people and the environment.".

As Westdene put it, thats solid eurosceptic ground. if only the greens werent so, well, green in their politics.

Exactly. As a solid Eurosceptic one of the things that has irritated me in this current spat is the assumption by nearly all the media that the only Eurosceptics are right-wing Neanderthal Tories who believe that we can somehow withdraw from the EU and set up a sort of 21st century new British Empire. As that Green document proves 'Euroscepticism' takes many forms. It's working out the right approach that's doing my head in at the moment.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Exactly. As a solid Eurosceptic one of the things that has irritated me in this current spat is the assumption by nearly all the media that the only Eurosceptics are right-wing Neanderthal Tories who believe that we can somehow withdraw from the EU and set up a sort of 21st century new British Empire. As that Green document proves 'Euroscepticism' takes many forms. It's working out the right approach that's doing my head in at the moment.

Agreed. And it's not helped when pro-EU people throw around statements of what would happen if us Eurosceptics were to get our way as some doomsday FACT. What annoys me the most are statements like "if you think we could trade with the EU from the outside then you're an idiot" - stated as an implied fact but with no evidence to back it up. Of course we could continue to trade with the EU - the question is on what terms ? I actually like the Green idea of starting again with no plans of political or fiscal union.

 

[Brovion]

Agreed. And it's not helped when pro-EU people throw around statements of what would happen if us Eurosceptics were to get our way as some doomsday FACT. What annoys me the most are statements like "if you think we could trade with the EU from the outside then you're an idiot" - stated as an implied fact but with no evidence to back it up. Of course we could continue to trade with the EU - the question is on what terms ? I actually like the Green idea of starting again with no plans of political or fiscal union.

One of the things I have to admit I've been wrong on is my assumption (shared by others) that "This isn't what we agreed to join in the 1975 referendum, we were joining a single market, not something that would become a European superstate". Actually - that apparently was always the intention. There was a line in the original Treaty of Rome about working together towards 'ever closer union', which is precisely what's happening. I think at the time if it was mentioned at all it was just dismissed, by both sides, as an empty piece of political rhetoric, but it turns out our new European partners were deadly serious. (And as a very enthusiastic and idealistic 18 year old Young European Socialist who rejected the 'dinosaur left' argument that the EEC was just a capitalist club I would have thought it a great idea!)

But now I'm with Caroline Lucas and the Greens - scrap it all and lets re-negotiate!

 

[Screaming J]

I'e always been pro EU because where I live up here in the North its only EU money which has enabled any infrastructure or training investment to happen at all since the late 80s. And I don't think the argument abut being out of the EU would then mean the Govt would put the money it saves back in to reinvestment is true; because I suspect all the Treasury would do would be to use it to finance tax cuts or pay off more of the national debt; and I'm a Keynesian me.

BUT; having said that I am extremely queasy about the Hun having any say on how much national debt our country decides it should have. I don't see that its any of their business.

 

[matthew]

Stay in, leaving will be the worst mistake this country has ever made. Our trade is shit as it is.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I'd rather be fully in but as that seems impossible for lots of reasons then get out. I hate this constant half in/half out conflict.