NSC's EU Vote

[Lincoln Imp]

Anything on the EU is bound to turn into a shouting match involving dictatorships and scaremongering and the Daily Mail and all the other stuff but perhaps we can all agree that as long as the UK adopts an essentially American model for running our economic, social and foreign affairs we will always sit uncomfortably in the European Union. For 50 years the UK have suffered mightily from an inability to choose which direction we want to go in. I know what I think but it's a sunny day and we're all Albion fans and life seems too short.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

know enough to know its not working, being dictated by the Germans and the French who will look after there interest first,
our courts being over ruled and then yes the human rights. we survived decades without them and we would do again.

Just a question - what has the European Court got to do with the EU?

 

[c0lz]

Just a question - what has the European Court got to do with the EU?

Its the highest court in the European Union

EU does too much, trying to create one rule for everyone in Europe and then makes people obey it even if they dislike that rule. I could go on and on.

 

[DTES]

Wow. 18-18 right now...

I'm on the Stay In side, unsurprisingly.

 

[Gangsta]

Leave.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Its the highest court in the European Union

EU does too much, trying to create one rule for everyone in Europe and then makes people obey it even if they dislike that rule. I could go on and on.

The European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU. It's there to support the European Convention on Human Rights, that the UK kick-started way back in 1950.

The European Court of Justice is the one that is charged with ensuring that EU law is complied with.

Most people seem to think that leaving the EU will mean dumping the Human Rights Court. It won't.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the EU. It's there to support the European Convention on Human Rights, that the UK kick-started way back in 1950.

The European Court of Justice is the one that is charged with ensuring that EU law is complied with.

Most people seem to think that leaving the EU will mean dumping the Human Rights Court. It won't.

This - and that's coming from an ardent anti-EU person ( me not The Lord ! )

 

[tedebear]

Leave - this is a Merkel and Sarkozy union now. Would be interested hear peoples views on how democratic this all is...

 

[Biscuit]

What about all the legislation that the EU provides? If we just left we'd have to spend the next decade rewritting and passing those laws.

Stay, stay, stay.

 

[Buzzer]

What about all the legislation that the EU provides? If we just left we'd have to spend the next decade rewritting and passing those laws.

You've not thought this through very carefully, have you? They'd still be legally binding in the UK as the UK Parliament passed the laws and whatever Government is in power would repeal or reform as they see fit. Pretty much what a new Government does when it succeeds a previous one.

It's an odd argument you've got if you think we should stay in the EU not because of ideological principles but because there might be a bit more paperwork involved otherwise.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

What about all the legislation that the EU provides? If we just left we'd have to spend the next decade rewritting and passing those laws.

Stay, stay, stay.

Why would laws passed by our own Parliament ( OK on the request of the EU ) become invalid if we left ? They are UK laws and it's only UK law that has any authority in the UK.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

In my industry - transport - the EU has done a pretty good job over the years at regulating to achieve higher standards of vehicles, safety and operation. It's important that these are the same standards all over Europe - not the least because we get our vehicles from manufacturers that are based in Europe. The idea that the UK would be better off if we made our own separate rules is ridiculous. UK vehicles would still have to comply with EU legislation the minute they emerged from the Channel Tunnel or drove off the ferry. The UK government and UK operators currently have a great deal of influence over the rules that regulate our industry. Leaving the EU would remove that influence, but European regulations would still have to be complied with. How would that be an improvement?

I guess the same is true of other sectors.

 

[Gangsta]

You've not thought this through very carefully, have you? They'd still be legally binding in the UK as the UK Parliament passed the laws and whatever Government is in power would repeal or reform as they see fit. Pretty much what a new Government does when it succeeds a previous one.

It's an odd argument you've got if you think we should stay in the EU not because of ideological principles but because there might be a bit more paperwork involved otherwise.

This. All the pro-arguments are paper-thin. Like the best reason anyone ever comes up with for joining the Euro is to convenience when we go on holiday. So thats what we were supposed to give up fiscal control for. right. Those in positions of power in Europe deserve our mistrust. From the Brussels Eurocrats sacking whistleblowers ( er, so where are the accounts - years on still no sign of them ), to the Policticians and Central Bankers who have presided over the biggest financial disaster since the 1930's. Political dogma railroaded the Euro through any serious debate over its workability given the huge differences between nation states, driven often by countries own agenda - Germany's exporters, Greeks easy money, and on and on. How can the same people who thought having a common currency yet no control over individual nations bond issuement be offered more power. With the centralising of powers away from nations and their electorate and the huge financial and resource pressures the continent will face over the next few decades one can but wonder how the European Civil War can be averted. If you havent seen "The Death of Yugoslavia" please do, one of the best documentaries you will ever see. A lesson from history...

 

[Biscuit]

You've not thought this through very carefully, have you? They'd still be legally binding in the UK as the UK Parliament passed the laws and whatever Government is in power would repeal or reform as they see fit. Pretty much what a new Government does when it succeeds a previous one.

It's an odd argument you've got if you think we should stay in the EU not because of ideological principles but because there might be a bit more paperwork involved otherwise.

Where did that attitude come from?

I was under the impression that we adopted the legislation and if we left, we'd leave that legislation behind as well? If this is not the case I stand corrected. I was thought we dropped the Trade Descriptions Act in order to pick up the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive, then if we left does that mean we can bring back the Trade Descriptions Act? Or did we never actually drop it, just favoured the EU directive?

If you could try and reply without being so condescending, it'd be a refreshing change and much appreciated.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

In my industry - transport - the EU has done a pretty good job over the years at regulating to achieve higher standards of vehicles, safety and operation. It's important that these are the same standards all over Europe - not the least because we get our vehicles from manufacturers that are based in Europe. The idea that the UK would be better off if we made our own separate rules is ridiculous. UK vehicles would still have to comply with EU legislation the minute they emerged from the Channel Tunnel or drove off the ferry. The UK government and UK operators currently have a great deal of influence over the rules that regulate our industry. Leaving the EU would remove that influence, but European regulations would still have to be complied with. How would that be an improvement?

I guess the same is true of other sectors.

And vice versa. It already happens - non-EU lorries have to conform to our laws.

If we leave I would still have to have a first aid kit, a hi viz vest and a triangle in my car to go to France.

I'm really not sure that's a valid arguement for staying in the EU.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Where did that attitude come from?

I was under the impression that we adopted the legislation and if we left, we'd leave that legislation behind as well? If this is not the case I stand corrected. I was thought we dropped the Trade Descriptions Act in order to pick up the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive, then if we left does that mean we can bring back the Trade Descriptions Act? Or did we never actually drop it, just favoured the EU directive?

If you could try and reply without being so condescending, it'd be a refreshing chance and much appreciated.

When we agree a treaty or act at EU level it becomes incumbent on us to make an equivilent UK law - that UK law stays in place regardless of whether we're in the EU or not. The only difference is that if we stay in the EU we HAVE to have that law.

 

[Buzzer]

Where did that attitude come from?

I was under the impression that we adopted the legislation and if we left, we'd leave that legislation behind as well? If this is not the case I stand corrected. I was thought we dropped the Trade Descriptions Act in order to pick up the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive, then if we left does that mean we can bring back the Trade Descriptions Act? Or did we never actually drop it, just favoured the EU directive?

If you could try and reply without being so condescending, it'd be a refreshing change and much appreciated.

Attitude? Blimey, you're very thin-skinned. I merely pointed out that you'd not really thought it through (and clearly you hadn't). Also, I stand by that last sentence completely. If you think that's me being condescending then you ought to see me on a bad hair day.

 

[Biscuit]

When we agree a treaty or act at EU level it becomes incumbent on us to make an equivilent UK law - that UK law stays in place regardless of whether we're in the EU or not. The only difference is that if we stay in the EU we HAVE to have that law.

Thanks Westdene, I've been well and truely educated.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

And vice versa. It already happens - non-EU lorries have to conform to our laws.

If we leave I would still have to have a first aid kit, a hi viz vest and a triangle in my car to go to France.

I'm really not sure that's a valid arguement for staying in the EU.

I think you'll find that non-EU lorries have to conform to European transport law, not laws that are dreamt up by individual governments.

 

[tedebear]

I think you'll find that non-EU lorries have to conform to European transport law, not laws that are dreamt up by individual governments.

I do think picking individual issues a little trite though as we have to measure the good against the bad of the EU. There are so many wins and losses of being in and or out that it is truly hard to see which way is up. Certainly being in makes us closer to the decisions being made which will affect us, but being out means what exactly? We'll still be affected by it, and if it goes down will still have difficulties but we'll be able to wave from the edge and say I told you so?

Who knows....